HD ready or not

Ray Maher · 18th March 2006, 16:09

An article in the Mail today says that nearly all the sets being sold as HD ready can only receive a maximum of 720 lines not the 1080 that HD will be broadcast in.

Currently there is only one set widely offered in the UK that offers 1080 lines, the 37" Philips
37PF9830 at £2800(ouch)

Is this true.

steve · 18th March 2006, 16:53

All 'HD-Ready' screens will accept 720p or 1080i video.
According to Alan Roberts, 37 inch is about the size that the 720 or 768 lines vertical resolution becomes visible at a practical viewing distance. Besides, most LCD/Plasma TV sets seem to underscan, so even if the screen does have the exact native resolution, the scaler will still spread 80% of the picture over the whole screen!

Steve

David L Lewis · 18th March 2006, 17:11

I think the question isnt so much about "HD ready" but "at what resolution."

I thought I would look at a new Sony Bravia Tv to eventualy show footage shot on my new Z1E and like Ray was astounded that they currently only sell TVs in the UK with 768 lines of resolution KDLV series However I understand that they are about to relaese an X series which will go up to 1080 lines

See Here

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/03...efs_up_bravia/

steve · 18th March 2006, 17:42

Sony aren't the first. Sharp had a 45inch LCD last year with 1920x1080 native resolution, but the smaller sizes were all something like 1280x720 or 1366x768. The problem seems to be that most users will sit at a distance too far to see the difference an anything smaller than 40inch-ish.

Ray Maher · 18th March 2006, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve

All 'HD-Ready' screens will accept 720p or 1080i video.
According to Alan Roberts, 37 inch is about the size that the 720 or 768 lines vertical resolution becomes visible at a practical viewing distance. Besides, most LCD/Plasma TV sets seem to underscan, so even if the screen does have the exact native resolution, the scaler will still spread 80% of the picture over the whole screen!

Steve

So is the article in the Mail wrong about HD ready sets having a maximum of 720 lines with 1280 pixels per line,giving a total of 921,600 against HD broadcasts of 1080 lines with 1920 pixels giving a total of 2,073,600.

Alan Roberts · 18th March 2006, 18:45

Yep, that's right. If you view a 37" from 3 metres, you don't need more than 720. 1080i can only deliver content resolution of about 720 anyway, so a 1080 display is a bit pointless unless you're watching 1080p. The only way you get that is when the source material was shot film-style, with the camera in psf mode. Fortunately, that covers all real film, all drama, a lot of newly shot light-entertainment and so on. The only material that seems stc=uck in 1080i is sport and news, where the smooth motion's important.

Having said all that, the horizontal count matters as well. HDV, 1080i, is a very good match to the 1366x768 panels, and is quite a bit better than's needed for 720p in any of it's forms (HDV is 1280 wide, DVCProHD-shot material is 960 wide) so you should be able to tell the difference even on a 768 panel.

There are many in the industry who don't agree with me on this, but the numbers all stack up this way, as does straightforward personal observation. Most of the personal opinions are based on a subset of combinations, like ignoring horizontal resolution, or ignoring the effects of the scalers in the panels, or setting cameras into modes that no sensible programme-maker would ever consider using just to make sharp pictures.

Alan Roberts · 18th March 2006, 18:49

The Mail is wrong, badly.

All the HD panels will accept, as input signals, both 720p and 1080i. They will all rescale the signal to fit the panel, including overscan. Many of them are dire at doing this, the more expensive ones can be quite good. The very expensive ones are pretty good. I saw a new 50" Panasonic (1366x768) panel yesterday doing a fair job of showing my A1 pictures, for about £2.5k. Frontniche's 37" (same res) does a really good job but costs £8.5k.

You get what you pay for, but they'll all show the pictures, whether 1080 or 720. You should ignore anyone who tells you otherwise, including, especially including, salesmen in Dixons.

infocus · 18th March 2006, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Maher

An article in the Mail today says that nearly all the sets being sold as HD ready can only receive a maximum of 720 lines not the 1080 that HD will be broadcast in.

If they are sold as "HDready" they will receive forthcoming broadcasts, or at least allow a receiver to be plugged in. The no of lines is only relevant to the spec in that to carry the badge they have to display a MINIMUM of 720 lines, but the spec defines much more - HDMI input, able to handle HDCP copy protection etc. See http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/...editorial.html - last few paragraphs.

A couple of months ago I was looking in a shop of a very upmarket electronics company (ie "posh", - no names), the make priced probably double that of comparable Sony, Panasonic gear and mainly due to it's exterior styling. The salesman approached, "do you want any help, sir", and I asked if the flatscreens were HDready. "Oh, they are HD COMPATIBLE, sir", in a tone that said "that's all you need to worry about". I couldn't resist digging deeper, and it turned out that "compatible" meant that to actually display high-def on them would mean an upgrade of £200+! When he said that "it will be unlikely that you'll be able to view HD in the lifetime of the set anyway" I had to bring up the BBC trials this year.

Just because something is dearer (MUCH dearer here), doesn't necessarily mean it's better........

Alan Roberts · 18th March 2006, 21:55

Quite so, but when I say you get what you pay for, I mean once you've shopped around. Clearly, if one shop sells a specific product significantly cheaper than another one does, and it provides adequate after-sales cover, then you'd be daft to go to the expensive one (or you might be a poser).

Ray Maher · 18th March 2006, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Roberts

The Mail is wrong, badly.

All the HD panels will accept, as input signals, both 720p and 1080i. They will all rescale the signal to fit the panel, including overscan. Many of them are dire at doing this, the more expensive ones can be quite good. The very expensive ones are pretty good. I saw a new 50" Panasonic (1366x768) panel yesterday doing a fair job of showing my A1 pictures, for about £2.5k. Frontniche's 37" (same res) does a really good job but costs £8.5k.

You get what you pay for, but they'll all show the pictures, whether 1080 or 720. You should ignore anyone who tells you otherwise, including, especially including, salesmen in Dixons.

You get what you pay for is right so my 26" set will show as good a picture as the one I saw on the demo set in Dixons using the same make as mine sourced from a hard disc.

What made me buy a HD ready set was the picture quality.

18th March 2006, 16:09	#1
Ray Maher Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Oxted Surrey, England. Posts: 1,177	HD ready or not An article in the Mail today says that nearly all the sets being sold as HD ready can only receive a maximum of 720 lines not the 1080 that HD will be broadcast in. Currently there is only one set widely offered in the UK that offers 1080 lines, the 37" Philips 37PF9830 at £2800(ouch) Is this true. __________________ Ray Maher

18th March 2006, 18:45	#6
Alan Roberts Moderate Moderator Join Date: May 1999 Location: Mugswell, Surrey, UK Posts: 11,986	Yep, that's right. If you view a 37" from 3 metres, you don't need more than 720. 1080i can only deliver content resolution of about 720 anyway, so a 1080 display is a bit pointless unless you're watching 1080p. The only way you get that is when the source material was shot film-style, with the camera in psf mode. Fortunately, that covers all real film, all drama, a lot of newly shot light-entertainment and so on. The only material that seems stc=uck in 1080i is sport and news, where the smooth motion's important. Having said all that, the horizontal count matters as well. HDV, 1080i, is a very good match to the 1366x768 panels, and is quite a bit better than's needed for 720p in any of it's forms (HDV is 1280 wide, DVCProHD-shot material is 960 wide) so you should be able to tell the difference even on a 768 panel. There are many in the industry who don't agree with me on this, but the numbers all stack up this way, as does straightforward personal observation. Most of the personal opinions are based on a subset of combinations, like ignoring horizontal resolution, or ignoring the effects of the scalers in the panels, or setting cameras into modes that no sensible programme-maker would ever consider using just to make sharp pictures. __________________ Alan Roberts, happily retired from Auntie Beeb Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them. My BBC-owned camera settings documents are held at BBC R&D, also mirrored by BPR (under construction, click on NEWS) and Daniel browning. Documents for BBC-approved HD cameras are at BBC Commissioning. My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here or directly from me.

18th March 2006, 18:49	#7
Alan Roberts Moderate Moderator Join Date: May 1999 Location: Mugswell, Surrey, UK Posts: 11,986	The Mail is wrong, badly. All the HD panels will accept, as input signals, both 720p and 1080i. They will all rescale the signal to fit the panel, including overscan. Many of them are dire at doing this, the more expensive ones can be quite good. The very expensive ones are pretty good. I saw a new 50" Panasonic (1366x768) panel yesterday doing a fair job of showing my A1 pictures, for about £2.5k. Frontniche's 37" (same res) does a really good job but costs £8.5k. You get what you pay for, but they'll all show the pictures, whether 1080 or 720. You should ignore anyone who tells you otherwise, including, especially including, salesmen in Dixons. __________________ Alan Roberts, happily retired from Auntie Beeb Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them. My BBC-owned camera settings documents are held at BBC R&D, also mirrored by BPR (under construction, click on NEWS) and Daniel browning. Documents for BBC-approved HD cameras are at BBC Commissioning. My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here or directly from me.

18th March 2006, 21:55	#9
Alan Roberts Moderate Moderator Join Date: May 1999 Location: Mugswell, Surrey, UK Posts: 11,986	Quite so, but when I say you get what you pay for, I mean once you've shopped around. Clearly, if one shop sells a specific product significantly cheaper than another one does, and it provides adequate after-sales cover, then you'd be daft to go to the expensive one (or you might be a poser). __________________ Alan Roberts, happily retired from Auntie Beeb Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them. My BBC-owned camera settings documents are held at BBC R&D, also mirrored by BPR (under construction, click on NEWS) and Daniel browning. Documents for BBC-approved HD cameras are at BBC Commissioning. My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here or directly from me.

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18th March 2006, 16:53	#2
steve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: St Albans, Herts, UK Posts: 1,138	All 'HD-Ready' screens will accept 720p or 1080i video. According to Alan Roberts, 37 inch is about the size that the 720 or 768 lines vertical resolution becomes visible at a practical viewing distance. Besides, most LCD/Plasma TV sets seem to underscan, so even if the screen does have the exact native resolution, the scaler will still spread 80% of the picture over the whole screen! Steve

18th March 2006, 17:11	#3
David L Lewis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Milton Keynes Posts: 1,060	I think the question isnt so much about "HD ready" but "at what resolution." I thought I would look at a new Sony Bravia Tv to eventualy show footage shot on my new Z1E and like Ray was astounded that they currently only sell TVs in the UK with 768 lines of resolution KDLV series However I understand that they are about to relaese an X series which will go up to 1080 lines See Here http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/03...efs_up_bravia/

18th March 2006, 17:42	#4
steve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: St Albans, Herts, UK Posts: 1,138	Sony aren't the first. Sharp had a 45inch LCD last year with 1920x1080 native resolution, but the smaller sizes were all something like 1280x720 or 1366x768. The problem seems to be that most users will sit at a distance too far to see the difference an anything smaller than 40inch-ish.