True Widescreen

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Nintembo
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I filmed some footage on a rented PD170 (so I'm unable to check camera settings) but I've captured the footage and I'm bet with bars straight away (in the preview) when I edit the footage as uncompressed and play back, viewing widescreen on my laptop, I'm met with the bars top bottom and sides!!!

Does anybody know what I'm doing wrong?

ANd on the subject of uncompressed AVI, is it common for the files to be so bloody big? 9gig for a video a few minutes long???

EDIT: I just had another play with the settings, I used Video for Windows (AVI) with the PAL DV Widescreen template (Pixel aspect ratio 1.4...) But ideally I want uncompressed files, does this method offer compression? The file size is MUCH smaller.

I right clicked the timeline and changed DV wide to just DV, and this seems to have sorted out the problem. I can now play the video full screen, and it plays the whole screen at the correct ratio.

But what should the field order for DVD be?

tom hardwick
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A lot of questions here so let's start at the beginning. You were presumably shooting in DV or DVCAM mode (720 x 576 whether you were in 4:3 or 16:9). So were you intending to shoot in 4:3 or did you want 16:9 footage - and if the latter, had you switched the 170 into it's (lossy) widescreen mode? If you did, you'd have had black bars top and bottom of the v'finder and side screen (letterboxing).

Let's assume you shot in 16:9 as you don't say. When you open your NLE (what is it?) you'll have to set project settings to 720 x 576 PAL 16:9. The firewire will take the replayed tape and place it as an avi on your HDD, whereapon it can be pulled to your timeline. It won't be letterboxed as your 170 footage will be 16:9 as will the project. It will make perfectly good 16:9 DVDs (though the resolution will be decidedly soft).

Field order is lower first for DV.

tom.

dominicwitherow
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Joined: Apr 2 2006

The large file size is probably caused by you changing the codec from DV to Uncompressed. DV is the native codec for any footage from a PD170 and there is simply no point in changing it to anything else until final delivery - your footage will only become harder to use and require fast RAIDs to play back properly and the picture will be exactly the same. DV is what you recorded. Don't change it!

For info, a 63 minute DV tape has a capacity of about 17GB.

Wot Tom said too :)

Dominic

Alan Roberts
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Nin, I don't know how many times I've said this, and you've shown no inclination to follow the advice in the past, but, here goes again. Why not get some training? The questions you're asking show that you really don't understand what you're doing, a short training course might fix that.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

tom hardwick
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Joined: Apr 8 1999

What Dominic said but nearer 13 gigs than 17.

dominicwitherow
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Oops! Yes, I realise what I did - 17 is roughly the max capacity when DV is used in LP mode, which is not advisable! Confusion arose from an excellent application I used to use to archive data from my Mac. Something like DV Vault, on the old machine. I ramble ... D

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Thanks for the great advise Dom and Tom, I don't know how many times I've said it, but I appreciate the kindness of you and your likeness.

Dom, this is for final delivery mate, on DVD. The files play back awful for me, so I'll send them regardless to see how they play on a more powerful system than my ol toshiba ; )

dominicwitherow
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the final delivery should be in mpeg2 format transcoded from dv NOT uncompressed anything!!! seriously, if i was your client i'd be well hacked off with video that had been mashed up in the way you have described - it's plain nuts to do it that way and a total waste of your time as well.

you NEED to use only dv for the edit then mpeg 2 as the ONLY other format AT ALL!

Whilst i'm only too happy to offer advice where i'm qualified to do so, i must also agree with Alan, as you clearly could do with some formal instruction. this scenario is so basic, that to need to ask questions about it shows that your level of understanding is such that some form of training can only be a good thing for you.

Don't take this as anything other than advice in the same vein as that about the codecs, it's the logical extension. you will only be causing yourself grief not to learn properly. even a decent book would be a wise starting point. check out video books at waterstones and see which one you like the look of - that'll get you started.

best
Dominic

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

I'm confused now. Originally I wanted to render as mpeg2. This what I was always taught for DVD. But the author house said no, that they wanted uncompressed AVI??

dominicwitherow
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Joined: Apr 2 2006

Ok, a bit more info helps a lot in answering a query! As this is the first mention of a 3rd party doing the authoring it all becomes a bit clearer.

For the purposes of DV originated footage and transcoding to MPEG2, the DV itself should be considered 'uncompressed'. The authoring house want to do the encoding to MPEG2 themselves (quite reasonably, as they will have dedicated, expensive systems for ensuring the best possible results) and they want the original quality footage to work with, in an AVI wrapper. Thus, give them a DV tape, HDD, BD or DVD (if final video file is small enough) with the DV output directly from your timeline. They are almost certainly assuming you understand that, hence the confusion over terminology. I would be very surprised if they wouldn't accept a Quicktime .mov file or a .avi too.

I would give them a call and confirm exactly what they want from you and ask them what they exactly mean when they say 'uncompressed', ie does that mean DV in its natural state or do they really want the video in a true Uncompressed codec? If they confirm the latter ask for a real explanation as to why because it would be a ridiculous request, given the workflow (it might make sense in some rarified broadcast scenario, but I get the feeling this isn't that).

As Tom responded earlier, with these sorts of issues we simply can't give a full answer unless we are in full possession of the necessary info. Next time, please do give us all the pertinent details at the outset!

D

tom hardwick
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Joined: Apr 8 1999

I'm pleased you thought my advise helpful Nin, but in my post nr 2 I had to ask many questions and make many assumptions and in subsequent posts you didn't answer or confirm any of them. Do as Dom says, bullet point your plea for help, giving as much background as necessary so we can all get straight to the point - otherwise we stumble in confusion.

It's a bit like the paramedic tending to the injured woman outside a Basildon Night-club. 'Where are you bleeding from?' he asks the woman. 'Romford, mate'.

tom.

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Haha, thanks Tom. And thanks Dom. (Next time I'll be sure to list more details)

Again, its appreciated.

I have a batch of uncompressed AVI files now, I'll see how the authoring house gets on with them. I sent them this morning on an external hard drive.

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Jesus, the PD170 footage just isn't coming out right!

Shot 16:9 on camera with a wide angle lens.

Project settings in Sony Vegas: 720 x 480.

For render: AVI, uncompressed.
Pixel aspect ratio: 0.9.
Not letterboxed (stretch video to fill frame)
25fps

FYI: The original AVI from the capture can play full screen (widescreen) fine with no bars top or bottom - never mind the sides as well like some tests have been giving.

(The bars are visible top and bottom in the editors preview screen)

dominicwitherow
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First, your project settings are for NTSC video and not PAL. I suspect they should be for PAL instead (different number of lines).
Second, when you say 'uncompressed' do you mean using the Uncompressed codec or DV with NO changes?
Third, what do you mean when you say 'it just isn't coming out right'? That statement is of no use whatsoever.

I like to think I am very patient and I do try to explain things simply, in the hope that it is clear to anyone who cares to read my response, but your lack of detail in any response so far is starting to make this very frustrating. I'm getting the impression (whether deserved or not) that you are not taking in anything. You have not given the slightest indication that you have actually taken any of the offered advice.

Please, if you would like any more help, please tell us exactly what you are trying to do, what the effects of our suggestions are and what the symptoms are of those seemingly failed attempts.

The fact that your captured footage works fine and that you are only having problems with your output suggests that you have chosen to completely ignore my earlier advice regarding compression, so I rather wonder why I am even bothering to reply again. If you were to answer our questions etc we might be able/inclined to answer yours. We would like to be helpful, I know I would certainly, but this particular query is getting rather tiresome.

Looking forward to a constructive response.

Dominic

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Dom I don't know how much more info I could give?

I have used the pixel settings as suggested in the second post of this thread.

When I say I am using AVI uncompressed - that is the actual name of the render setting in Vegas.

When I say it still isn't coming out right, I am referencing the earlier problems (which still exist) of getting either bars at the top and bottom or at the sides - and sometimes both. The closest I have got it to look normal so far (correct ratio, people not looking thin etc etc) is unfortunatly with bars top and bottom and side to side where it would appear top and bottom were inserted in the edit - and the sides are just filled in by the screen as if I were playing back 4:3 footage.

I am still just trying to get this footage to render with a normal look, full screen. Widescreen.

dominicwitherow
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Joined: Apr 2 2006

You are not using the settings suggested by Tom, reread his initial post. You are still using an uncompressed codec, which is EXACTLY what I said you should not do and is the main problem you have.

Use DV PAL 16:9 for ALL your settings. That will be a preset in Vegas, it's about as simple as video can possibly get. DO NOT use uncompressed.

Whilst in the DV codec, your widescreen video can appear square or letterboxed on your computer. Don't worry about that, it will be fine when it's put on the DVD, as long as it's fine in your NLE, which you say it is.

D

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Within the NLE, there are always borders.

Its only when viewing the AVI straight from the computer in its raw states it appears full screen (on a widescreen)

Paul Jordan
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Joined: Apr 22 1999

It sounds as if your project properties are all wrong in Sony Vegas. If you bring up the Project properties window in Vegas and click on the Match Media button and select the video file you are going to being using then this will set Sony Vegas up properly for you as a starting point.

You can now start your edit from beginning to end and the next step is to render what is on the timeline. This can be to any format you like depending on what final delivery is going to be. Go to File>Render As and you will be presented with a choice of different formats. If you are producing a DVD then select the Mainconcept MPEG2 section and specify PAL Widescreen.

If you are saving a master in the same format as the camera filmed in then select Video for Windows (avi) and choose PAL DV Widescreen.

This is just a starting point to get you on the right track. The above settings will give you the footage played back in full widescreen(16:9) without black bars anywhere on a widescreen TV and correct aspect ratio of the picture.

Hope this helps.
Paul

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Yes!!!!

Thank you Jordan, that match media button did the trick! As soon as I did that, the video displayed properly in the NLE.

I just rendered MPEG2, but there was no PAL widescreen in the sub menu, so I selected PAL DVD. It plays fine - image taking up the whole widescreen display on my computer! Brilliant! No bars!

EDIT: I tried the AVI, PAL DV widescreen setting. When it was rendering, it kept on coming up on the preview "No recompression required". The footage plays full screen (widescreen) again, but the footage has noticble lines on motion.

I'll be contacting the author house tomorrow to put forward some of the suggestions of this board about uncompressed AVI not being the route to go down for delivery of footage for them to put on DVD.

dominicwitherow
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Joined: Apr 2 2006

the lines in DV output are standard interlacing - PD170 shoots interlaced footage. The author house asked for uncompressed (almost certainly meaning undoctored DV) because their compression to MPEG 2 will be superior to yours, so give them the DV version.

I strongly suggest a basic tutorial on Vegas, as that would have avoided this entire, very frustrating conversation. D

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Thank you everybody for the advise, I really appreciate it.

I'll be creating new masters: AVI in DV widescreen format. 720x576. 25fps.

Lower field first.

Pixel aspect ratio = 1.4568

Interleave every 0.25 secs

Not letterboxed.

Audio at 48,000hz

Files to be given to author house on a hard drive for them to encode on DVD.

Any objections anybody? If not, I'm going for a massive beer!!!! : )

Thanks for your help,

Nin

Maxwell
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Joined: Jan 13 2007

If advice has been given before would it pay the person to look on the forum and do a search?.
Many of you who have the knowledge give good advice and at times get cheesed off.
One can read and learn but it is certain words and format which rob me of understanding.
I can read on here and not understand certain things. But the way the answers are done is a great help.
I think we have reached the stage of so many formats on computers. Some have the knowledge to understand and some are impatient and some are just lost.
I have all three items but in no particular order.

Paul Jordan
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Nin

That all sounds perfect, glad you got there in the end!

Paul

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Thanks Paul, that gives great peace of mind.

Out of interest, if I were to have some 16.9 digibeta footage transferred to mini dv would the same principle apply?

Alan Roberts
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Yes.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Thanks!!!

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Just a follow up to the above situation; by applying the same setting to the Beta transferred footage - it did indeed work fine. Except for one tape.

One tape (using the exact same settings) leaves me with bars both sides of the footage. Is there then a chance that the Digi originally recorded that 4:3 or would it more likley have something to do with the transfer to DV of that particular tape?

Alan Roberts
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How wide are the side-bars? Beware that, of the 720 pixels width in SDTV, only 702 are guaranteed image content, the remainder can be anything. With analogue-shot footage, the i age rarely fills the 720 pixels, but digitally shot stuff usually does fill it.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Sorted this issue out Alan. Bit odd, but its because I manually entered the data for the tape settings as opposed to letting the computer detect them, even though it logged the exact same data.

I'm just having a further nose of the settings to ensure everything is optimum. Within the render sub settings, there are more sub settings I have just noticed.

"Save project files in media file" should I be clicking this?

In project settings within the render tab, "Video rendering quality" I have been selecting "use project settings" I assume I am right to be clicking "best" for full res rendering quality within the project settings then. The auto option is only "good".

Pixel format is auto set to 8 bit. Is this correct? It gives me further options of 32 bit floating point video range and 32 bit floating point full range.

Motion blur type: Gaussian.

Deinterlace method: blend fields. I assume this would be correct.

Thanks for any help.

Alan Roberts
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You'll need to ask someone who uses Vegas to sort that out. I've never seen Vegas, let alone used it.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Paul Jordan
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Joined: Apr 22 1999

Nin

I leave "Save project files in media file" unticked. You should have no need to have this ticked.

Use best for video rendering quality.

I use Pixel format at 8 bit. 32 bit floating point is used for broadcast material and it takes ages to render. I tried it for a time but reckon the render takes 10 times longer.

Motion blur Gaussian.

Deinterlace method blend fields.

Hope this helps.
Paul

Nintembo
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Joined: Jun 22 2004

Thanks Paul! You're awesome!

Nintembo
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Hello, this same project I am trying to put on YouTube to show you guys the project, but I'm having trouble with it looking any good.

I have tried uploading the AVI to YouTube in its current state (which looks great on computer) but comes out **** on YT. Does not take up whole screen, jerky, etc.

I have tried uploading as MP4 at both 1000000bps and 6291456bps respectively as per previous advise but that still does not come out looking too sweet. Vegas does no support H264 unfortunately

What would be the best render settings for PD170 "16:9" footage for YouTube?

harlequin
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Nintembo wrote:

What would be the best render settings for PD170 "16:9" footage for YouTube?

youtube give you all the info you need.

http://www.google.com/support/youtube/bin/topic.py?hl=en&topic=16612

follow those instructions , upload as a 16:9 , in one of the allowed formats @ http://www.google.com/support/youtube/bin/answer.py?&answer=55744

Gary MacKenzie

sepulce@hotmail.com ( an account only used for forum messages )

Thinkserver TS140 , 750ti Graphics card  & LG 27" uws led backlight , Edius 8

Humax Foxsat HD Pvr / Humax Fox T2 dvbt

foxvideo
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Nintembo wrote:
Hello, this same project I am trying to put on YouTube to show you guys the project, but I'm having trouble with it looking any good.

YT stuff always looks c**p for the first few minutes, it's still being encoded by YT - have you tried watching it 10 / 15 minutes after uploading?

Dave Farrants Fox Video Editing

Nintembo
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Hello Guys,

I have a new video saved in Sony Vegas. The project settings are 720 x 576, Pixel aspect ratio of 1.456. The project consists of mostly DigiBeta footage converted to Mini DV. The preview in the NLE edit shows black bars to each side of the video.

When I right click the individual clips in the timeline, select properties, and unclick maintain aspect ratio - the video fills the screen nicely - in the CORRECT aspect ratio. Excellent!

When I render the video as an AVI, PAL DV widescreen, selected "stretch to fill screen (do not letterbox) pixel aspect ratio of 1.456 - it comes out in the correct aspect ratio filling the whole screen (on full screen) in great quality no less. EXCELLENT

When I upload that AVI file to YouTube - I am left with the black bars described at the top. RUBBISH.

Does anybody know how I sort this very frustrating issue out?

EDIT** just changed the project settings to the preview settings (as the preview is coming out lovely) however when uploaded to YouTube - again I am met my black bars of death : (

EDIT** I just rendered it selecting to letterbox the footage - and I'm still met with the same result in YT of the black bars each side.

Nintembo
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Tried several more things, and still the black bars appear. I have tried different formats, different project settings etc etc. Followed YT settings to a tee. Very frustrating when the video is playing fine in the NLE, and when playing the AVI file, just not in TY : (

foxvideo
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Dave Farrants Fox Video Editing

Nintembo
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Yes mate, I did think about just going for the tag, but I would rather sort out a proper render. It's frustrating because I know it can be done, as it's been done with the same footage in the past. Nin

Arthur.S
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Re: True Widescreen
Don't know if you got over this problem Nin, but for YT/Vimeo uploads, I just use the Sony AVC 'Internet' template. Looks pretty good, and renders fast. So, drop your finished file on the TL and render to that. I've never had any problems with it. (Or if you only want Internet delivery, go straight to it for render.)