JVC HD100 Has Landed!!!

99 replies [Last post]
cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

Here is the link straight to the clips page!

Indeed, our JVC GY-HD100E (and BR-HD50E deck to match) arrived this morning! I didn't know they were here until about 3pm though so i haven't had too much of a play... YET!

took about 15mins to put it together and then fired it up with a 40min DVCAM tape in. Recorded some of the worst camera work i've ever done - i'm too tall for the mains cable and i'm not waiting for the battery to charge! ;)

Then captured the HDV stream with VLC and played it back with VLC... oh, yes! it looks really rather nice!

We don't have a decent-sized HD display set up yet to view footage on yet (tomorrow) but it looked fabulous on a 19" CRT PC monitor! very fine detail as expected. Output the same thing to a Panasonic 42" SD plasma and it looks shocking! highlights the need to get the pioneer (50" HD) out of stores! Even on 19" Iiyama Prolite TFT it doesn't look that great - noticably better than SD but nothing compared to the CRT.

I'm off to fire up the pioneer HD plasma and get the deck out of the box so we can try the DVI!

i'll be charging the battery over night and taking outside to shoot tomorrow (stuck indoors with the mains today) - any requests for specific subject matter / shooting style?

one VERY happy mark... :D :D :D

[edit]BR-HD50 has HDMI output and we don't have a HDMI->DVI cable yet... also, turns out our pioneer is slightly older than i thought and doesn't like 720p. It'll take the up-converted 1080i from the deck via component, but it's not exactly a good test so i'll keep trying for a decent-sized HD display...[/edit]

warzan
Offline
Joined: Aug 2 2005

Hi there

Im new to all of this but we are trying to decide between this camera and the z1 for chromakey work for multimedia projects.

If you can shed any light on the options it would be great :D

Cheers

warzan

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

well, for chromakey you want good colour resolution, which you don't really get with standard DV due to the 4:2:0 sampling. I think the Z1 and the HD100 are both 4:2:0 as well but the added resolution gives better chroma resolution which in turn gives better chromakey results. I suspect Alan Roberts may answer that question better than i can, and do his best to throw some numbers in to explain it all as well.

hopefully it'll stay dry and i'll be able to get out and about tomorrow and get some footage shot... with a tripod... ;)

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
Good DV/HDV chromakey requires a good plug-in
warzan wrote:
chromakey work for multimedia projects

Both DV and HDV (as mentioned) use only half the frame rez for colour, therefore a straight chromakey can look blocky and rough (though I guess doing an HDV key then downsampling the result to SD would get better results than a plain SD chromakey!).

Thankfully, a number of developers have worked out ways of reconstituting the lost information, either by filling in the blocks or by looking at the luminance info for help.

Please check out zMatte and DVmatte Pro. I use both (depending on the quality of the footage) and get great keys devoid of typical DV artifacts.

I'll also add that I'm looking forward to testing the HD100 as the lower rez, progressive scan and equal datarate compared to HDV should get better quality (less compression artifacts), therefore cleaner keys.

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002
MattDavis wrote:
I'll also add that I'm looking forward to testing the HD100 as the lower rez, progressive scan and equal datarate compared to HDV should get better quality (less compression artifacts), therefore cleaner keys.

i assume "compared to HDV" means compared to HDV2 as used by the Z1. If that's the case then the data rate is actually lower for JVC's implimentation (HDV1) because they wanted to keep some bits available for expansion.

HDV1 (jvc):
Frame Size: 1280x720 pixels
sampling frequency for luminance: 74.25 Mhz
Bit rate after compression (audio&video): 19.7 Mbps
Sampling format: 4:2:0

HDV2 (sony):
Frame Size: 1440x1080 pixels
sampling frequency for luminance: 55.6875 Mhz
Bit rate after compression (audio&video): 25 Mbps
Sampling format: 4:2:0

warzan
Offline
Joined: Aug 2 2005

So basically i understand that for the top results we need to be looking at the 'really pro' cameras (kinda goes with out saying lol)

No we haven't the budget for that so in the mean time we're gona have to make the best of what we can get.

Am i right in thinking that if we want good quality shots (possibly with alot of movement) we should focus on:

A really well lit Green Screen
A Progressive HD camera ie the HD100
A good software combination like Premiere, Aftereffects, Aspect HD and Ultra 2

Would you guys agree that for a small studio on a tight budget we could begine to show some results with this kind of setup? We are PC based by the way :)

Just trying to eek out any little bits of advice that will help us both now and in the long run :D

cheers

warren

Richard Payne
Offline
Joined: Sep 15 2000

Ultra 2 is very good. Forget Premiere's own key its not good, After Effects 6.5 Pro is good but expensive. Canopus Edius has the best Real time key of all the programs we have tried. There are trial versions of Edius and of Ultra 2 so try for yourself.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

ok, so i went for a quick walk around outside this morning, and being excited as i was i left the white balance on manual... the wrong manual... grr!

anywho... mpeg encoder seems good - leaves and grass blowing in the light breeze looked good with no obvious mpeg artefacts.

mark.

Richard Payne
Offline
Joined: Sep 15 2000

I heard tell of a magic motion compensator button to help with jerky pans - does this button exist?

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

there is a "Motion Smooth" function in the menu...

from page 66 of the manual:
"makes the video smoother when the tape is played back by adding frames to the signal recorded on the tape during progressive shooting."

i'm not quite sure what this means but i'll have a go at a few tests to find out what it's doing.

mark.

StevenBagley
Offline
Joined: Aug 14 2000
cstv wrote:
from page 66 of the manual:
"makes the video smoother when the tape is played back by adding frames to the signal recorded on the tape during progressive shooting."

i'm not quite sure what this means but i'll have a go at a few tests to find out what it's doing.

I suspect rather than decompressing the MPEG2 stream to 25p and repeating each frame on output (to get 50p) that it interpolates the motion vectors to generate the missing 'frames'. Which will introduce it's own artefacts.

In other words if the MPEG2 streams says move this block 4 pixels to the right to generate the next frame. It moves it 2 pixels to the right for 2 frames.

Clever, but liable to introduce more artefacts.

Steven

warzan
Offline
Joined: Aug 2 2005

any chance you could upload some footage to have a look at?

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002
StevenBagley wrote:
I suspect rather than decompressing the MPEG2 stream to 25p and repeating each frame on output (to get 50p) that it interpolates the motion vectors to generate the missing 'frames'. Which will introduce it's own artefacts.

In other words if the MPEG2 streams says move this block 4 pixels to the right to generate the next frame. It moves it 2 pixels to the right for 2 frames.

Clever, but liable to introduce more artefacts.

Steven

i considered that, but surely it still outputs 25p? in which case it might take the 2 pixel shift that you suggest and overlay it at maybe 50% opacity. i just need to rig up a pendulum now for an almost scientific test... ;)

i'll upload some test footage as soon as i can (hopefully tomorrow). it'll probably be via bit torrent because the file will be quite large and it'll end up costing me a fortune in bandwidth on my web space. Bit Torrent should be a more efficient way of distributing it anyway and make it quicker for people to download.

mark.

Mad_mardy
Offline
Joined: Oct 19 2000

when u view your results CSTV is there any chance u could view them on a bog standard tv or video monitor as well rather than just plasma screens,TFT's and pc monitors.

as to be honest i wouldn't trust anything on those.
at least not the ones i have access to

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

i'd love to mardy, but none of the CRT video monitors we have will accept a 720/25p component signal and i don't want to get into the SD downsampling just yet. SD functionality is the next thing to test though, probably next week.

As for the "smooth motion" function, a quick test shoot of some cars shows that it adds a slight ghost to the image. i haven't downloaded the free trial of Edius yet so i'm just using VLC so i can't tell if it's a ghost of the previous frame, or a ghost of a "tween" of the current and previous frame. The ghost is definitely behind the motion though. It's worth noting that this is added to the recorded image so if you accidentally leave it turned on, you're stuck with it!

here's a still of what the "Smooth Motion" function does:
note the "ghost" at the rear of the car - the car was moving right to left (forwards!)

click for full image

NB: this image (including "full" version) is not representative of the quality of the footage from the HD100 because it is compressed. VLC will only output screen shots as png or jpg. sorry.

I have about 90MB of footage to share. It's nothing at all special, just some cars driving past the lens (see still above). One clip with "smooth motion" turned on, and one with it turned off.

I'll attempt to sort out my router tonight so i can host the Bit Torrent tracker on my machine and run everything from there (rather than using someone elses tracker server) i'll post the torrent and an idiot's guide to bit torrent here later tonight.

mark.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

ok, the 2 mpeg transport streams are ready, and hopefully my bit torrent tracker is too!

Cars without "Smooth Motion" 56MB

Cars with "Smooth Motion" 32MB

you'll need a bit torrent client to download the clips, i recommend Azureus. It's Java based so you need the Java Runtime Environment to use it. There are other bit torrent clients available too - look around :)

this is the first time i've used the built in tracker in Azureus so i'd apreciate it if someone (Gary?) who has a BT client already could check the torrent and post here to confirm.

if someone has the bandwidth to host these clips (and others that will follow) via HTTP or FTP (Bob C?) then i'm more than happy to send them over, i just don't have the bandwidth to have lots of people downloading 90MB each from my web space! :D

[edit]i forgot to mention that the clips were shot with ND1 (1/4 ND) on and with the shutter set to 1/500. Other than that and "Smooth Motion" all settings were default[/edit]

thanks,
mark.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

Update: Bit Torrent tracker has how been tested and is working. someone may have volunteered to host the clips though so they may be available via HTTP shortly.

more clips to follow this evening.

mark.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

ok, next clip added via Bit Torrent.

this is a pan over some gravel outside the office and a fence. IMO it shows the mpeg encoder coping really quite well with lots of detail, and the overall quality of the image even when being operated by me!

Gravel Clip

still working on the HTTP side of things...
mark.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

ok, clips will shortly be available via HTTP here!

Many hugely massive thanks to Matt Davis for very generously offering to host the clips. Obviously if bandwidth usage gets too high he'll have to pull the plug, so please download via Bit Torrent if you can. If you have downloaded them via HTTP and then want to share them with people it'd be great if you could burn them a CD rather than sending them to the HTTP download page. Of course, they're still there to be downloaded, so don't be put off! - Ok, slight rethink - if it's evening, weekend, or in august download away! :D thanks again Matt

It's worth noting the you may even getter a quicker download with Bit Torrent and if you do download the torrents, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep seeding until at least 1:1 ratio so that i can temporarily stop seeding older clips and upload new ones.

Something i forgot to mention was that the clips are MPEG2 Transport Streams as created by the JVC GY-HD100 camcorder. The extension is .ts and they play very well in VLC which is free, open source, and available for almost every OS.

i'll edit this post when HTTP downloads are available.

HTTP DOWNLOADS ARE NOW AVAILABLE FROM THE LNK SHOW ABOVE

mark.

Mad_mardy
Offline
Joined: Oct 19 2000

Do you want me to host them as well?
that way we can split the bandwidth and maybe none of us would have to pull out due to high bandwidth

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

if you have the bandwidth then yes please! i'll upload each clip as it's shot to Matt's server and via bit torrent, and if you'd like to offer a mirror then all the better! :) if you the send me the link i'll add it the page i mentioned above. Cheers!

mark.

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
cstv wrote:
please download via Bit Torrent if you can

Don't worry, folks. It's August, its the evening, the weekend looms, nobody's at the office - the perfect time to utilise some of that wasted bandwidth. :D

Come September, different story.

Get your downloads whilst they're hot!

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

mark.

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Interesting. Let us know what they say.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Mad_mardy
Offline
Joined: Oct 19 2000

I too have just got hold of a hd100 on demo
i'll have a play on mine and see if this is also apparent
i take it this is in HD mode.
To be perfectly honest i'm more interested at the moment in its SD capabilitys

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

warzan
Offline
Joined: Aug 2 2005

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=47966&page=2&pp=15

Seems you are not the only one to notice this!

This could set back a purchase or two.

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
warzan wrote:
Seems you are not the only one to notice this!

Here's another thread, also has some sample footage and images to download.

One thing I have noticed is that, dispite some sniffiness about the Motion Smoothing, clips seem to play back far better than the non-smoothed stuff on my PowerBook.

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

I'm getting inside info on this problem, we know what causes it and so do JVC. It should be fixable in factory setup. I've sent evidence to JVC UK and they're passing it back to the factory in Japan.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

i have more footage that i'm really rather impressed with that i'll upload on saturday afternoon...

mark.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

ok, more sample clips from the HD100 are uploading right now. it might be an hour or 2 before they're all up though - should be done by 14:30BST today.

I spent a few hours playing with the HD100 yesterday afternoon and i must say that the images really are growing on me! i got back and started dumping the footage to the PC, but VLC won't let me watch while it does that so i hooked the HD100 up to a monitor via the CVBS output and it looked STUNNING! I was amazed at how good the pictures looked!

oh, and btw there's a nice menu listing for the HD100 here that people may want to look at, and more info here.

more stuff to follow but i'm on holiday from wednesday for a week so i'll go quiet again. I may withdraw some of the existing shots at some point to make space on Matt's server for new footage - how much space can we use Matt? it's up to about 370MB at the moment! eek!

mark.

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005

No worries on disk space. I got an email from the server saying it was approaching quota so I've upped it by 500 Mb.

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

Following the discussion on the dvxuser forums that Matt posted a link to, i'd just like to confirm that we've not noticed any dead pixels. if you can see any on the clips i've uploaded please let me know! :)

mark.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

somthing else i've just noticed is that the mpeg header that the hd100 produces says the mpeg is 50p and we all know it's 25p!

Looking at the clips from dvxuser.com, the 24p stuff shows as 59.94 progressive frames per second, which is actually what you'd expect because of the 3:2 pulldown... i think. But the 30p stuff is reported correctly as 29.97fps.

does anyone have any ideas about this?

mark.

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
cstv wrote:
says the mpeg is 50p and we all know it's 25p!

IIRC, at the JVC bash a couple of months ago, we learned that the HD100's front end is capable of 50p, but the back end (the DV transport mechanism) was to be limited at 25p "with room for improvement". If only we had an HD-SDI output instead of the analogue. :D

BTW, Many thanks for posting some more footage! I had been feeling a bit down about this camera until I looked at Ducks and Waverly, and got all excited again about that lens. I'm comparing it with shots from a Z1 filmed under similar conditions, and as I've always moaned: "the Z1 is soft and the autofocus cannot be relied on". However, Sony's lower range has always had zingy colours - maybe too zingy for the professional market judging by what I've seen from 570s and up. However, the HD100 seems to need a little something...

Can you try upping the saturation a bit and either boost the reds or cut the blues by a gnat's? It still looks a little too cool and the greens could do with a lift.

IMHO of course. I'm viewing this stuff on a Mac...

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002
MattDavis wrote:
I had been feeling a bit down about this camera until I looked at Ducks and Waverly, and got all excited again about that lens.

i know how you feel. my very first impressions of waving it around in the office about 10 mintues after taking it out of the box (footage not posted here) was quite exciting, then i had more of a play with it and the pictures seemed to get soft and washed out. I went out on friday hoping to get some nice shots and watching the playback when i got back the office i was really quite pleased! :D

i should probably point out that the close up shots of the ducks and the llamas were at pretty much full zoom and i apreciate that that isn't an entirely fair representation of the quality of the lens. i should also mention that while my camera operating skills have dramatically improved over the last few days, i'm still not even close to knowing what i'm doing!

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

another clip up now. it's llama rolling about. IMO the mpeg encoder copes well with the dust that's thrown up. It's also a good demonstration of the limits of the lens as this shot was full zoom, with not-really-ideal lighting, and it shows.

mark.

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
Probably shouldn't admit to this but...

There's this big problem with first impressions: they last, but they may not be right - but they may be a great source of info to guide you into the future.

I remember the first day I and a colleague got to play with a Z1. We treated it like a PD150, and tested it with exterior shots, hand held and stabilised (fig rig), did all the things we knew MPEG2 would hate, pumped the settings to what we knew PD150s liked.

Without the kit to ingest, we went to a friend with FCP5 (would it have been beta then? Dunno) on a maxed out G5. We ingested, and crowded round an Apple Cinema Display to watch the footage at 1920x1080.

Oh. Okay.

It stuttered on pans. it looked like scaled up DV (but scaled up DV that was bloody good), it had lots of edge enhancement (big fat lines around edges). But it looked like a PD150 alright. A PD150 on steroids.

From then on, I was not a fan.

Then, forced to use Z1s rather than PD150s, and with some time alone with a manual, a camera and a garden to film, I began to respect what it was. It was my first entree into HDV, and it was better than SD. I could pull a stop into the shadows with black stretch. I could warm things up and boost the colour and luminance that's lost for data display. All in all, a good step up from the PD150, and it works transparently with FCP - hooray!

But the HD has to be deinterlaced. So, squishing down to 1280x720 and deinterlacing, rendering out to Photo-JPEG, now people can't tell the difference between the scenes shot in HDV and those in DV!

Along comes Mark's Ducks and Baby Llamas and Waverley footage. Acid test: my wife, a total luddite non-videogeek, is adamant: the HD100 footage is better than the Z1 footage: sharper.

Alan - how do you think Auntie will try to match these against DSR500s? I'm particularly interested in your intimate knowledge of setups of the 500s and how they differ from 150s. :)

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

Matt, is there anything in particular you intend to shoot with an HD100?

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
cstv wrote:
Matt, is there anything in particular you intend to shoot with an HD100?

Cue 'Mission Impossible Music':

Interesting footage of... Talking heads, chromakey (which I know will be cr@p), exteriors hopefully bathed in golden sunlight with product rolling around in it, exhibition booths (where I hope to do better than the dvx.com footage), GVs of stunning vistas in glorious 16:9, the sort of 'Top Gear' footage but shot on a pocket money budget staring little cars that to Sainsbury runs, vox pops at big conferences, lots and lots of people in their offices twiddling things, lots and lots of managers talking about things. Bits of factories churning out elements of something you probably don't recognise.

I'm sure everyone gets the picture. Indy Film it is NOT!
:D

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

warzan
Offline
Joined: Aug 2 2005

Hi Matt

Just out of curiosity why will the chroma key be crap? (we are hoping to use the kit for that purpose too). :)

Cheers

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
warzan wrote:
Hi Matt

Just out of curiosity why will the chroma key be crap? (we are hoping to use the kit for that purpose too). :)

Cheers

Well, again, perhaps I should be wary of 'received wizdom', because the same wizdom says that DV is crap for chromakey too - yet I've got great results with zMatte and DVmattePro plugins, which reconstitute the missing chroma information with help of the luminance channels.

Lurkers: DV101 - the colour is stored 'kinda' at half the rez of the black-and-white info, so straight chromakeys with DV look like you cut out your subject with pinking sheers - or a cheese grater.

So where it's now safe to say that chromakey can be done with DV with the help of special plugins, the fact that there's so much more compression happening in HDV may mean that it's even harder to pull a good key than with DV: all that edge detection, blocking artifacts and DCT stuff, on top of the half-rez colour...

But I haven't tried it yet, and until I try it I don't know if it really is going to be 'crap', or one can get away with it. For talking heads, well, probably yes - I hope - one can get away with it, but for theatrical release stuff, I don't think so.

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

i'll have a go at some chromakey on monday. my thinking was that it should be better than DV because the HD100 is progressive. A big problem i have with DV chromakey edges is the interlace combing which won't be a problem with the HD100. Of course, if you took your HDV footage, did the key and then down-converted it to SD it should look pretty fantastic! If you don't want the edge detection on the HD100 it's pretty simple to turn down or off.

The HD100 should be perfect Top Gear stylee stuff. All you need is a purple vingette to add to the progressive scanning and cine gamma and you're sorted! ;)

now... to find something blue... oh, and to email Gary for a crash course on Edius! I downloaded their free trial during the week and was utterly stumped! all i wanted to do was change the project to my own custom settings rather than using a preset because Canopus didn't see a need for a 720p/25 (or even 50) setting! But they did have the HDV 576p/50 preset - odd... Anyway, i'll see what i can do!

mark.

warzan
Offline
Joined: Aug 2 2005

we were hoping to get good results by capturing direct to hard disc using hdv rack. We can reduce the compression that way, then do our chromakey stuff and reduce the res of the footage and keep its alpha channel intact. Im obviously assuming this is all possible lol

StevenBagley
Offline
Joined: Aug 14 2000
warzan wrote:
we were hoping to get good results by capturing direct to hard disc using hdv rack. We can reduce the compression that way, then do our chromakey stuff and reduce the res of the footage and keep its alpha channel intact. Im obviously assuming this is all possible lol

You won't reduce compression by capturing direct to hard disk -- the data out the firewire socket is identical as that recorded to tape. The only way to improve it would be to record the analogue out via HDSDI as uncompressed HD.

720p HDV shouldn't be to bad to bluescreen off, something like Nattress' G Nicer plugin for FCP should upscale the chroma nicely enough. However, the other problem is that I've been told that the chroma contains a lot more compression artefacts than the luma part of the image. Which may cause problems. Although of course, this is all theory -- what happens in practice could be quite different.

Steven

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Chroma key will be limited by the MPEG2 recording, it's still only 4:2:0.

The MPEG recording will, correctly, report itself as 50Hz, because there are actually 50 frames per second on tape. But alternate frames are duplicates, not new. The overhead to do this is tiny, because there are no frame-differences to code. Perhaps we need a new acronym for this, we;ve already got:

i : interlaced as in 576i/25, meaning SD signal at 50Hz field rate with interlaced frames.

p : progressive, meaning only full frames delivered, once and once only.

psf : progressive with segmented frames, meaning progressive frames delivered in interlaced field pairs.

So how about:

prf: progressive with repeated frames, meaning progressively scanned frames delivered in full, each new frame repeated once.

This way, we can say the camera produces 720p/50 images (which it really does), and the recorder records 720prf/25.

Make sense?

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

it does make sense Alan, but seems a little, no, a lot pointless! what possible advantage is there to recording a duplicate of every frame. Obviously there's very little additional bit usage but why bother at all?

mark.

StevenBagley
Offline
Joined: Aug 14 2000
cstv wrote:
it does make sense Alan, but seems a little, no, a lot pointless! what possible advantage is there to recording a duplicate of every frame. Obviously there's very little additional bit usage but why bother at all?

BEcause the decoding chips inside are then more than capable of handling 720p50/60 streams. I wonder if JVC are using off the shelf decoders or are making sure that the decoder doesn't have to be redesigned when they start to offer true 50p support.

It means that they can perhaps offer 720p50 HDV1 cameras where the tapes will play happily on older machines for example.

Steven

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

could be... reading other forums it seems that the HD1 can play back the 24p HDV stream via firewire even though it can't decode it. Sadly, JVC's decision to not use the "Audio" part of the tape track means that standard DV players can't do the same with the HDV stream. In theory though, Sony's HDV2 tapes should play back over IEEE1394 from standard DV devices. Has anyone tried this?

mark.

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

The reason for making the MPEG data stream 50Hz and not 25Hz is that it can then be replayed directly into a display without causing horrendous brightness flicker (anyone who's seen a display running at a genuine 25Hz will know what I mean). The displayed image rate is 50Hz although the source image rate is only 25Hz. In the limit, it costs only one bit per frame to make this happen, so it makes huge sense.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

so a similar effect to the shutter on a film projector then...? thanks for clearing that up Alan.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

chromakey clips (source and keyed) are up - same location as before

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005

Congratulations! Great work.

As any fule no, I woz rong! If I may mix some more metaphors (beat until stiff), beware the ides of received wisdom. I stand happily corrected (for 720p footage anyway).

Leaving aside the very pythonesque subject matter, there are some artifacts that show MPEG2 at work - there's a cadence to the edge on some diagonals, but like you said - it's amazingly good considering the circumstances.

And if anyone should doubt, one WON'T get a key like that off DV first time. Warzan, looks like you're in for a treat!

There's part of me that was seriously considering running away and joining the XL2 camp, where lenses are sharp and latitude is wide. Trouble is, it's still DV, high chroma is anathema, and DV needs a lot of chicken-waving to do chromakey.

Take this footage, downsample it to DVCPRO50 (4:2:2) and we have something exciting!

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Yep, same principle as the projector shutter. The video frame has been drawn in the frame buffer which is only updated at 25Hz instead but is displayed at 50Hz.

I agree about the PRO50 downconvert, that has to be the best SD use for this camera.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Dvdude
Offline
Joined: Aug 20 2005
MattDavis wrote:
There's part of me that was seriously considering running away and joining the XL2 camp, where lenses are sharp and latitude is wide.

Why would you consider a XL2 over a HD100? It seems the HD100 does all the XL2 does and more. I don't think the XL2 lenses are any sharper and I don't understand your latitude remark. The clips posted by CSTV showed more latitude than I ever seen from any DV footage.
Or were you just being sarcastic?

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
Dvdude wrote:
Or were you just being sarcastic?

That was the intent, but maybe the subtlty was lost:

FCP doesn't support ProHD PAL natively (please, if anyone knows different, let me know - free me from my misery!). As a Mac/FCP user doing event videography, the long and arduous chain of importing HDV, transcoding to DVCPROHD and editing from there means that the HD100 will be a SD camera for most of the time. Therefore, in my tiny little world, it's in direct competition with the XL2, which would include the superwide zoom in the same price.

Secondly, I intercut PDX10 voxpops into an HDV project recently - uprezzing the DV to HDV. Presenting the HDV movie as a PhotoJPEG QuickTime movie. Nobody noticed the quality drop to DV. :confused:

Dvdude wrote:
I don't understand your latitude remark.

There are image controls on the XL2 which means that when faced with a background in bright sunlight and foreground in shade, you can tweak black stretch, master pedestal and setup level to just about squeeze all the tones in, which leads to a rather dull flat foreground which can easily be pushed up again in FCP. You get tone in all areas of the image where a PD150 or maybe even a Z1 in a non-Z1-geek's hands would have to loose the background.

Check out this great sales piece (you'll see the link to the video) to see the example - but be patient! It's a long long video and you'll have to wait to get to about 45% into the movie.

As I've said before, gimme cans of red and cream spraypaints and I could probably provide you with an XL3! :D

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002
MattDavis wrote:
uprezzing

what a lovely word!

as for the "latitude" question, there are all sorts of black crush and strech controls on the HD100 as well as access to the black level and colour matrix setup. I've played a little with the black crush and stretch and the results are pretty obvious and quite impressive. I've had about as much experience with the canon's XL range as i have with bricklaying so i'm by no means an expert, but I suspect that JVC's design mentallity for the HD100 has resulted in a lot more "pro" features than you'd generally expect on kit in it's price range. Given the right tools (like the Roberts "exposure-expander" 3000 ;) ) i'm reasonably confident the HD100 could do a lot more than the XL2!

As ever though, you've got to consider the delivery format. True, HD originated footage does look better than SD originated footage, even when scaled down (or is that downrezzed?) to SD, but what happens when you go below SD? how about well below SD? I seem to recall Alan talking about HD being scalled for mobile devices but i don't really see how the source resolution makes much difference. The contrast, yes - because better contrast can make life easier for the encoder, but for delivery at sub-VGA resolutions does HD really look better than SD?

mark.

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
cstv wrote:
for delivery at sub-VGA resolutions does HD really look better than SD?

Probably not.

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Experience in Korea suggests that it does look better. The reason's obvious to me, but may not be to you) please don't take that as an insult, I've worked in this field for decades).

HD pictures are sharp because they have higher resolution and good contrast. So there's much less call for detail enhancement of the sort that puts dark lines round things. That survives down the line, so the pictures don't have dark linews round things, and they look better (unless some clown, at the down-conversion stage, has deliberately put them back in).

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
Alan Roberts wrote:
please don't take that as an insult, I've worked in this field for decades).

Heaven forfend, dear chap! No worries there.

I will, however, state that I am working on the evidence of my own eyes. Fairly wobbly evidence, but it's wot-i-got and all-i-got:

http://www.gpjco.tv/saudi_h264.htm

In this movie, which requires QuickTime 7 as it uses H264, I've intercut vox pops shot on a PDX-10 by the Producer (so the camera's in fully automatic mode :D ) with HDV shot on a Z1E in a Fig-Rig.

Most eyes that have been cast over the video have not picked up the quality difference.

If you haven't got QuickTime 7 yet, there's a Sorenson version here , but it's hard to pick out anything that would separate the HDV from the SD.

Incidentally, the crane shots are wobbly because I was trying hard not to vomit at the time. There's also a couple of choice shots that demonstrate the dangers of lens bloom when the iris closes beyond f8 - f11.

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

hmmm... i can see that the contrast and exposure are much better on the Z1 but that's probably largely down to the auto mode on the PDX10.

There's one shot, only about 12 frames long, of a close up of the bird of prey - fantasticly clear and quite impressive for the bit rate and frame size.

mark.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002
shutter...

Something i've been meaning to ask about is the shutter speeds available on the HD100 for each of the recording modes. These are the speeds for each of the modes (all as 1/x seconds):

50Hz Mode:
6.25
12.5
25
50
120
250
500
1000
2000
4000
10000

60Hz Mode:
7.5
15
30
60
100
250
500
1000
2000
4000
10000

24Hz Mode:
6
12
24
48
60
100
250
500
1000
2000
4000
10000

what confuses me are the ones that i've highlighted in bold - sureley these are the wrong way around...? Or is that normal?

mark.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

this thread's getting a bit long and is a bit of a mess so i've posted a summary over here!

it's much easier to read! :D

StevenBagley
Offline
Joined: Aug 14 2000
cstv wrote:
what confuses me are the ones that i've highlighted in bold - sureley these are the wrong way around...? Or is that normal?

I suspect it is deliberate -- or at least very useful if not since it allows you to remove the flicker you get shooting with a 50Hz camera in a 60Hz country (or vice versa) -- assuming there is enough light about.

Steven

Digital Lion
Offline
Joined: Sep 5 2005

Can this JVC do overcranked SLO MO shots, like the Varicam?

How does it compare to the Varicam overall, for HD cinema stuff at 24p?

And one more question: How do you think the JVC's footage would blow up to 35mm prints?

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

well, the vaircam is a lot more expensive, and thus gives more impressive results. Varicam uses DVCProHD IIRC which uses a lot less compression than the HDV MPEG2 stream does so you get better pictures.

In theory you can get 720p/50 (or 720p/60) out of the camera on the analogue component output. if you had a means of recording this you could slow it down to 25p (or 30p or 24p) to get a 50% slomo but that's as far as the speed control goes.

As for 35mm blow ups, i have no experience of that at all, let alone with the HD100. I know there is a feature film being shot in New Zealand on a pair of HD100s - google should be able to find the press releases for you. I suppose this might end up on 35mm eventually but quite frankly, why bother? The whole point of HD for features is to get away from film for aquisition, so why bother using it for distribution. It would make much more sense to invest in HD projection and digital distribution infrastructure which is what many of the big studios and cinemas are doing at the moment. IIRC Brazil has HD cinemas popping up all over the place because they never really got into 35mm. If you were looking at a top-notch HD projector, i'd strongly recommend JVC's D-ILA projectors.

mark.

PaulD
Offline
Joined: Aug 31 2002

Hi
Its the Panasonic HVX-200 (not yet released) that can supposedly record to its P2 cards any frame rate between 4-60, and dump this to internal DV tape to give variable speed recording.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

oh yeah! i forgot about that... shame the HVX-200 is more of a concept than an actual product at the moment :(

Digital Lion
Offline
Joined: Sep 5 2005

Well, it sounds like the HD100 would not be a good choice for a feature film, if you were hoping to get it distributed (blown up to 35mm) because of the compression. Even VariCam is questionable with its tape compression scheme, from what I understand.

I was hoping this thing might be comparable to the VariCam so I could just buy it, rent a good lens and shoot my feature without worrying about camera rental.

But I guess I will just go with the f900, f950 or Genesis.

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Yep.

The HDC27F Varicam runs the camera at incremental frame rates between 4 and 60Hz. It's a software development of the original HDC27 which ran the camera only at 60 (or 59.94Hz). Panasonic spent no money on the conmpression algorithm, or on the tape transport, when evolving the Varicam, so the tape runs at constant speed, recording intra-frame compressed DVCProHD at 100Mb/s. Each frame on the tape can stand alone. When then camera runs at slower than 60Hz, it duplicates frames on the tape as needed to fill it up. This has the benefit of not needing a variable speed recording system, and the viewfinder display always runs at 60. So it was cheap to do.

The JVC HD100 records MPEG bitstream with (IIRC) a 12-frame GoP. So frames do not stand alone, they have to be decoded from the GoP structure. The HVX200 is supposed to record HD to P2, so it is an inherently variable speed recording and should easily cope with 1 to 60Hz frame rate, thus there's no wastage of tape as with the Varicam. When it happens, it'll be a very interesting camera.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Digital Lion
Offline
Joined: Sep 5 2005

Can the Varicam and sony f900 series do time-lapse? I understand that the f900 can do "overcranked" shots, but that you have to use separate tapes and do something rather complicated in post. I wonder how hard time-lapse and overcranked slo-mo shots will be to work with if I am trying to edit offline from downconverted footage on time codes, with EDL lists and all that?

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Varicam can do time-lapse. You tell it what the lapse interval is (frames/seconds/minutes/hours) and the number of frames to take each time. That's all in the menus. It assumes that you'll be playing the footage at 24 or 25Hz like film.

F900 shoots at all the ATSC Table III rates, 23.98/24/25/29.97/30Hz psf or 50/59.94/60Hz interlaced. And that's all. If you want to use it as under/over cranked you have to do it in software, the camera can't do it. Same with the 750 (only 25psf/50i), 730 (29.97psf/59.94i) and the 730/730s (only 59.94/50i). Whatever you've been told about these cameras being suitable for under/over, it's wrong, they don't.

The only cameras that do under/over properly are the Varicam and the yet-to-appear HVX200. Unless you want bto start talking specialist cameras like the Arri Tornado etc.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Digital Lion
Offline
Joined: Sep 5 2005

Any opinion on how well the VariCam would blow up to 35mm prints if you are shooting straight to tape?

Dvdude
Offline
Joined: Aug 20 2005
Digital Lion wrote:
Well, it sounds like the HD100 would not be a good choice for a feature film, if you were hoping to get it distributed (blown up to 35mm) because of the compression. Even VariCam is questionable with its tape compression scheme, from what I understand.

I was hoping this thing might be comparable to the VariCam so I could just buy it, rent a good lens and shoot my feature without worrying about camera rental.

But I guess I will just go with the f900, f950 or Genesis.

Well, if you have the budget for Genesis, what are you even doing in a HDV thread? Of course the HD100 is no Genesis. But have you seen the price difference? For the price you buy a HD100, you can't even rent a Genesis for a whole week. Hellooo, reality check is in order.
For the money, the HD100 is great. It does what till now, you had to pay 80,000 for a Varicam to do the same, which is shoot 720p. All for 1/18th of the price.

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Quite. And there's lots more differences too.

HDV format is 4:2:0 (1440/720/720 horizontal, 1080/540/540 vertical; or 1280/640/640H, 720/360/360V), Varicam is 4:2:2 (960/480/480H, 720/720/720V), and that's just for starters. The Arri D20 is 4:4:4 (lots by lots).

Varicam has been used for feature film production. At the official launch in London (about 2 years after I'd first seen and used them), Panasonic showed us a 35mm feature film shot on Varicam. Looking at it critically as a cinema film, it looked to me a little soft, but looking at it as a 720p production it was exactly right. If you want an equivalent film process, I'd say it looks more like a super16 production, produced in super16 throughout (i.e. print, cut the print, interneg, release print) but printed up to 35mm for realease, except that the noise is much more like 35mm throughout and gets no worse in processing. A super16 "long-neg cut to release" would have looked sharper, depending on the stock used, in my opinion.

One major advantage of the Varicam though, over all the alternative HD cameras, is it's gamma-processing. Mr. Takaguchi (head of the design/production team) is a brave and clever chap who really understands film, and has done a superb job of mimicing film transfer characteristic in this camera. No other camera comes near it yet. I earn a decent amount of money in advising HDTV productions on how to get the best from HDTV kit and cameras (and that usually means getting a film look), and I can't get close to the performance of Varicam, in this respect, in any other HDTV camera. (Note: Genesis, Dalsa, Kinetta, D20, Tornado etc are not HDTV cameras, they're electronic film cameras recording log data; Thomson Viper fits into the slot in-between, recording either or both video and log).

Getting top quality costs top prices, it doesn't take much to work that one out.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002
Alan Roberts wrote:
(Note: Genesis, Dalsa, Kinetta, D20, Tornado etc are not HDTV cameras, they're electronic film cameras recording log data; Thomson Viper fits into the slot in-between, recording either or both video and log).

"log" data as in logarithmic? or as in just logging the exact pixel data as it comes off the sensor?

mark.

Digital Lion
Offline
Joined: Sep 5 2005
Dvdude wrote:
Well, if you have the budget for Genesis, what are you even doing in a HDV thread? Of course the HD100 is no Genesis. But have you seen the price difference? For the price you buy a HD100, you can't even rent a Genesis for a whole week. Hellooo, reality check is in order.
For the money, the HD100 is great. It does what till now, you had to pay 80,000 for a Varicam to do the same, which is shoot 720p. All for 1/18th of the price.

Well, you can rent a Varicam package for about 3 grand a week. The f900 for about 4 grand. Some of my friends have gotten packages on both cameras for about 5 grand for THREE WEEKS.

I don't know about the Genesis.

My point was, if the JVC could come close to the matching the VariCam, I might just buy the JVC. But it sounds like, if I want to blow this up to 35mm, I'd be better off just renting the Varicam.

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
Some great ProHD clips

BTW, Nate Weaver has posted some more HD100 footage to check out on the DVinfo boards!

Really encouraging stuff...

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

excellent! :)

see what happens when you give this thing to a professional, rather than, erm... me.

mark.

Relievo
Offline
Joined: Jun 30 2005

OK, so Im ready to buy a JVC GYHD100!

But is there anything round the corner that will kick JVC's ass?

I know that there will always be something better, but I mean, will there be anything in the next few months?

www.relievo.co.uk
If I advance, follow me. If I stop, push me. If I fall, inspire me.

StevenBagley
Offline
Joined: Aug 14 2000
Relievo wrote:
OK, so Im ready to buy a JVC GYHD100!

But is there anything round the corner that will kick JVC's ass?

I know that there will always be something better, but I mean, will there be anything in the next few months?

Yes, a JVC GYHD100 with a fixed CCD block so that you don't have one half of the picture darker than the other.

I'd seriously wait until that is fixed before purchasing one.

Steven

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

That fix is in the pipeline. We know the cause, and they're working on it as a firmware upgrade.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Dvdude
Offline
Joined: Aug 20 2005
StevenBagley wrote:
Yes, a JVC GYHD100 with a fixed CCD block so that you don't have one half of the picture darker than the other.

I'd seriously wait until that is fixed before purchasing one.

Steven

3

It only shows at 18 gain. Who shoots that way anyway? Unless paparazzis.
The camera is fine the way it is. There has been many example clips posted online which shows that. You can't see anything wrong in real life situations. People are nitpicking on meaningless details.

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Nonsense.

It's an analogue problem, and, as such, is different from unit to unit. Some cameras may not show it at all at any gain, others may have it clear at 0dB gain. You can't make a blanket statement like that based on only one camera. JVC know about this and are fixing it, but there's no way you can dismiss it like that.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

As Alan said, the problem is in hand and JVC are working to fix it so i'm not too worried.

Relievo
Offline
Joined: Jun 30 2005
Alan Roberts wrote:
That fix is in the pipeline. We know the cause, and they're working on it as a firmware upgrade.

So I would be able to update via the memory card?

www.relievo.co.uk
If I advance, follow me. If I stop, push me. If I fall, inspire me.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

that's what JVC are saying at the moment.

Mad_mardy
Offline
Joined: Oct 19 2000

Is there any update on this issue yet?
are the new camera's coming off the production liner still flawed or have they been fixed?

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
Mad_mardy wrote:
still flawed or have they been fixed?

I got an update on the JVC/TouchVision Milk Run on Tuesday, and to make sense of SSE, we need to think of it less as a "Car released with defective brakes" issue and more like a "PC released with buggy operating system" issue.

Behind the scenes, there's going to be regular updates to the firmware going on all the time, but they're in Beta - not necessarily ready for prime time - egad, what if a tweak made it better 90% of the time and made it worse 10% of the time? Sounds like the discrepancies heard between US, Canadian, Swedish, UK and Late UK units, doesn't it? Some get SSE with high gain, others get it by pointing at a white wall with no gain, and meanwhile those of us who haven't got one yet are waving split hazel twigs over the discussion boards trying to fathom what's going on.

What I can say is that on Tuesday I shot some SD footage with an HD100 inside and out , including some 'WHite wall' which is the current SSE 'cause du jour', and gave up trying to induce it and got on with enjoying the camera (another story).

From what I gather from the noises off-stage, it is a software thing, it's mostly due to the ever-so-clever solution to use two computers to halve the load of doing HD to HDV beautifully, and the resultant nightmare of trying to synchronise those two computers that are doing fuzzy logic to work their magic so that they're both doing pretty much the same sort of thing. Multi-CPU has been done before, but maybe not in a camera.

FWIW, a silly analogy: For those of you who know the game "One song to the tune of another" on I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue, how would you reduce that to a process that guarantees fidelity Every Single Time with Any Two Participants?

:D

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Just one point; although the internal workings of the camera are all digital, it isn't a computer (or pair of them) doing it. The thing's called a dsp (digital signal processor) that's controlled by the tiny computer that does the menus and so on. You wouldn't believe how slowly that computer works, while the dsp hums along at 74MHz clock rate.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Mad_mardy
Offline
Joined: Oct 19 2000

cheers, the question is do i buy one? hmm

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002
Mad_mardy wrote:
cheers, the question is do i buy one? hmm

well that all depends on your application... what are you shooting on at the moment? and what would you plan to shoot with the HD100?

Mad_mardy
Offline
Joined: Oct 19 2000

using an XL1 S
want to use for all manner of things really but at the moment mainly special interest documentary.
i was thinking more of using it for SD than HD

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

StevenBagley
Offline
Joined: Aug 14 2000
Mad_mardy wrote:
using an XL1 S
want to use for all manner of things really but at the moment mainly special interest documentary.
i was thinking more of using it for SD than HD

Probably worth waiting till the XL3 is about (as that will do proper motion rendition at 50/60hz) and getting hands on experience with both models.

Steven

Mad_mardy
Offline
Joined: Oct 19 2000

cheers my only issue with the new XL is that damm lens still no proper focus marks and a lens that twists indefinatly

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

infocus
Offline
Joined: Jul 18 2003
StevenBagley wrote:
Probably worth waiting till the XL3 is about

Though that is likely to be a lot more expensive than a Z1 or HD100. If the main initial use is likely to be SD, the HD100 fares better in comparison - most of the reservations about it seem to be more regarding it's HD modes, and especially it being 720p/25.

cstv
Offline
Joined: Jul 26 2002

indeed. whereas the Z1 is a reasonable improvement on the PD170 SD-wise, the HD100 is utterly fantastic in SD mode!

having a proper lens, even if it is a "baby" version, makes a big difference to the usability of the camera.

if and when you do want to shoot HD, so long as you are aware of the differences between shooting interlaced and progressive scan then you should end up with some lovely pictures.

mark.

Mad_mardy
Offline
Joined: Oct 19 2000

cheers for all your help i'm hopefully gonna go with this cam at the moment

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

Mad_mardy
Offline
Joined: Oct 19 2000

Just one word at the moment
FANTASTIC!!
err anyone know a good rain cover for this camera

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

infocus
Offline
Joined: Jul 18 2003

It's all gone very quiet about this camera at the moment. What's the latest on the split screen issue that is either the end of the world/no problem, depending what you read?

MattDavis
MattDavis's picture
Offline
Joined: Jul 1 2005
infocus wrote:
All gone quiet...

I'm exiting stage left on the HD100 debate.

Now I've spent some time with the camera, I've found it's not for me - I didn't like the viewfinder (I got paranoid over focus), the panel (didn't do it for me), the power consumption (woah!), the glicky start-stop in HD mode that destroys the first and last 6 frames, the tape transport and its setup (fiddly between HD and SD), the dropouts in HD, the lack of Mac support in HD for PAL users, the start-stop button on the lens, the white balance that didn't like my warm-white cards, the appauling audio meters, the ear-pad that defeats the use of headphones without offering anything like that utility, and the realisation that it's still a little too big to be discrete and fit in a non-descript bag without being disassembled.

Don't get me wrong...

It is truly a cameraman's camera, and I think the images a good DoP can get out of it are stunning when treated right, but it's not the camera for me and the work I do. For now, I'll continue to work with rented Z1s until I can try an XL1-H and an HVX200.

Matt Davis - Director/Editor - Write, shoot, edit, publish - website & Blog
2x EX1R, FS100 & FS700 into FCPX & CS6