4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100

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infocus2
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Big announcement from Sony which may be of interest to some - http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/press/press-ifa-pxw-z100 - they also talk of a cheaper version with restricted features.Thoughts....? :-)
infocus2
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
I really cannot believe that no one has so far commented on this yet on this forum.......   Elsewhere on the internet it's being seen as possibly one of the most significant bit of news in the prosumer video market in years, on the scale of the Z1......
PaulD
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
Hi
Well, there's 'commenting', and there's 'posting' said comment :)
Since you've asked ;) ;)
Quote:
"...expanding the 4K world to everyone" is just so second best in these soon-to-be 24K days:
"by the time you’ve put on a clapperboard you’ve shot about 1 terabyte of material..."
LOL !
kseth
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
"XAVC recording format at 4K 50p/60p, 4:2:2 10-bit at 500/600Mbps" Try storing and editing that!
 
 
H and M Video
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
kseth wrote:
"XAVC recording format at 4K 50p/60p, 4:2:2 10-bit at 500/600Mbps" Try storing and editing that!
 
 
 
Was just about finished a comment last night when the phone rang.  After a "long" conversation I decided to shut down the PC without posting but my response would have been similar to Kseth's.  My first thoughts were of a "gravy train".  Having to upgrade to a new PC (or is the power available now?), possible new monitors, software? (might have to go CC with Adobe), Memory Cards that cost an arm & a leg (32GB for £174)? etc.  As a hobbist too expensive even if the camera was at a low cost.  But still have to say WOW when I think of the quality that is there.
 
Harry

PC Specialist 3Gz Dual Core, Premiere CS3, Encore CS3, After Effects CS3, Matrox RT.X2, Panasonic HD HS-300, Z1E & PMW-EX3 Cams.
 
Now with a PC Specialist Quad Core i7-3770, 16GB RAM, 180GB SSD, GeForce GTX560 Ti Graphics Card, Blu-Ray & DVD R/W Burners and can't wait to set it up. Now up and running.  What a difference in Blu-Ray footage.

Mark M
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
Well, I find it quite exciting, but not sure it's for me just yet!
 
Not worried about the editing (PremiereProCC will cope just fine) or the HDD space (the HD recording bitrate approx same as the PRORES 422 my Ninjas record at! I'm used to it!, and besides,with the promised future firmware upgrade to AVCHD recording one will get lower bitrate recording.). I'm more concerned about the monitoring (A 4K Sony Bravia TV is £3300....) . I'm hearing that a lot of stuff is being shot in 4K now for future-proofing, so it might be a good business decision to invest now BUT this camera has some limitations that don't make me keen to rush out and buy it: the servo focussing for a start. Is there remote lens control? Can I put a zoom demand on it? Am not seeing anything in the specs about that. Low light performance? With a single chip I'm not so optimistic, but until we see real-world examples one can't judge. I've seen footage from it's "consumer" sibling:

See video

And it looks pretty fine, as far as one can tell on YouTube.

 
But at only £4k (LOL, 4K for £4K) it's priced to tempt...

I'm confused about the recording formats. It says XDCAM on the camera, but in the specs I don't see XDCAM listed as a recording format. Sony's press releases aren't always 100% accurate so I'll wait and see what the finished product's specs are. I suppose with the promised future firmware upgrade to AVCHD recording one will get lower bitrate recording. Hoping to see one in person at IBC.

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infocus2
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
kseth wrote:
"XAVC recording format at 4K 50p/60p, 4:2:2 10-bit at 500/600Mbps" Try storing and editing that!
That's far from the whole story. There's a few more details at http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/sony_pxw_z100 but basically it seems the codec you mention is the fully pro I-frame only one - as used in the F55! But it's only part of the story.

  

The link talks of "XAVC LongGOP and AVCHD upgrade (mid 2014)", and by that I believe AVC-HD is for 1080, XAVC long-GOP is for 4k. I believe that's about 150Mbs - so not much more than AVC-Intra.
 
I think putting that sort of codec choice (fully pro AND more geared towards prosumer) on such a camera is an extremely good idea. The most valid criticism I heard levelled at the original HVX200 was not that it was DVCProHD - but that it was DVCProHD and P2 ONLY for HD working. If it had the option of HDV to it's tape deck AS WELL it would have trounced the Z1, given the option of DVCProHD when downloading wasn't a problem AND HDV and tape for other circumstances.
infocus2
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
kseth wrote:
"XAVC recording format at 4K 50p/60p, 4:2:2 10-bit at 500/600Mbps" Try storing and editing that!
 

Doing a bit of research regarding the new camera led me to an post you put up recently - http://www.dvforums.com/forums/edius-7-launches-4k-and-blackmagic-support - where you enthuse about Edius 7:

Quote:
Edius 7 launches today with major new features that make the software more appealing than ever.
 

........ For 2013 Edius now delivers extensive 4K format editing, enabling users to deliver the highest image quality without transcoding to an intermediate codec. It supports new formats including 4K M-JPEG for Canon 1DC, XAVC Intra 4K for the new generation of Sony PMW-F5/F55 cameras and ........

So are you now saying that you've found Edius 7 not to be as good as previously thought? That it doesn't deliver the goods for 4k and/or XAVC?
 

Because if you now think it will struggle with I-frame only XAVC, it's going to be even worse with RAW from the Black Magic, isn't it?

kseth
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
I'm simply saying that 500Mbps is a lot of information to store and edit. That's all - I hardly think it's a contentious statement!
infocus2
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
kseth wrote:
I'm simply saying that 500Mbps is a lot of information to store and edit. That's all - I hardly think it's a contentious statement!

Not contentious in itself, but the remark came across as "so expect that to be difficult!!" Which struck me as very, very different in tone to what you posted about Edius 7 and the Black Magic camera 2 months ago, so it made me wonder if after a bit more experience you were finding 4k with Edius more difficult than you'd first thought?  
    
Bearing in mind that the Black Magic records ProRes at over 880Mbs for 4k and RAW at an even higher bitrate still (which Black Magic seem not to have divulged) - then if anyone thinks 500Mbs is a lot of information, is it true to say forget about Black Magic!?! 

  

The other point that's important is that if you use XAVC long-GOP on the PXW-Z100, it's not 500Mbs - it's 150Mbs. Only a 50% file increase over AVC-Intra. And AFAIK there isn't a comparable option with the Black Magic codec support?

Medidox
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
It's difficult to comment upon a press release but I suppose that the we can discuss the form factor, which being prosumer, with a fixed lens and a servo zoom does at least make it easier to get out there than say the Black Magic camera.
 
The other interesting aspect is the sensor size, slightly larger than 1/3" which means that focus will be easier, making it stand out from the super 35mm sensors etc of most of the other 4k offerings. 
 
Do we need 4k? is it inevitable?  Who knows, this time the consumer will decide.
tom hardwick
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
Much is made in Sony's press release of the 'big chip' when they spec it as a 1/2.3'' device, but the G lens is straight from the NX5 /Z5, whose image circle is designed to cover the 1/3'' chip(s) fitted to those cameras.
Medidox
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
tom hardwick wrote:
Much is made in Sony's press release of the 'big chip' when they spec it as a 1/2.3'' device, but the G lens is straight from the NX5 /Z5, whose image circle is designed to cover the 1/3'' chip(s) fitted to those cameras.
 
The lens could well be the weak point on this camera.  I haven't seen a NX5/Z5 but when I had a Sony Z1 and then a Z7 the chromatic aberration especially when wide had to be seen to be believed.  In 4k all those white edges with green and magenta hues will be finely resolved!
 
 
Matt Davis has posted this video on the Sony site which is a bit of a tease but you can at least see what you are getting
 
 
and it uses NP style batteries.  Pretty amazing that a battery system which is 18 years old is still going strong.  I have a couple of NP-930s from 1997 that still hold a charge and work for a couple of hours.
H and M Video
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
"Matt Davis has posted this video on the Sony site which is a bit of a tease but you can at least see what you are getting"
 
In my opinion a complete and utter waste of time showing a camera being unpacked.  Why do they do it?  Better to go to a site which gives the spec's and has better photo's.
 
Harry

PC Specialist 3Gz Dual Core, Premiere CS3, Encore CS3, After Effects CS3, Matrox RT.X2, Panasonic HD HS-300, Z1E & PMW-EX3 Cams.
 
Now with a PC Specialist Quad Core i7-3770, 16GB RAM, 180GB SSD, GeForce GTX560 Ti Graphics Card, Blu-Ray & DVD R/W Burners and can't wait to set it up. Now up and running.  What a difference in Blu-Ray footage.

Mark M
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100

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H and M Video
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
That's much better.  A worthwhile watch.
 
Harry

PC Specialist 3Gz Dual Core, Premiere CS3, Encore CS3, After Effects CS3, Matrox RT.X2, Panasonic HD HS-300, Z1E & PMW-EX3 Cams.
 
Now with a PC Specialist Quad Core i7-3770, 16GB RAM, 180GB SSD, GeForce GTX560 Ti Graphics Card, Blu-Ray & DVD R/W Burners and can't wait to set it up. Now up and running.  What a difference in Blu-Ray footage.

Medidox
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
Coming back from IBC I might have to eat my own words about the consumer deciding about 4k.  The decision is made, we're going for it whatever happens.  The most interesting discussion about 4k I heard was on the EBU stand where they presented some information about testing 4k with consumers and what was going to be the compelling reasons to drive interest.
 
Resolution alone obviously isn't enough.  In order to see the benefit you have to get uncomfortably close to the screen, (unless you are the kind of person that always sits in the front row at the cinema).  But 4k does offer more than this, it offers a higher dynamic range, much more colour information and higher frame rates.  And what was interesting is that they had consumer tested some of this stuff. Now the dynamic range and colour information made a small difference to the viewing experience but the thing that made the consumers sit up and take notice was when they increased frame rate.  Here the consumers really saw the difference and marked it accordingly and this was what the EBU thought could be a real driver for 4k.
 
That and more involving sound.
 
As far as codec and bandwidth, they seem to already have solutions for pushing 4k along the transmission route today that mean with Moore's Law it will be in consumer products in three or four years and commonplace by the end of the decade.
 
It's fair to say that if 4k is all about higher frame rates and better sound then that's great, but does it also need to be 4k? Couldn't you just soup-up HD and get pretty well the same effect?  But since all the major manufacturers are betting the kitchen sink on 4k they need to show the benefits where they can. 
 
It's also probably wise not to be an early adopter in the home on this one, the changes are going to be coming thick and fast and the first screens will be quickly superceded.
robo
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
Yes, but was all this 'consumer testing' done with people who actually gave a damn or 'real people' ? There will come a point where Jo Public won't give a toss what it's filmed on or how detailed the pixels are on someone's spotty face. I wish they'd concentrate on making things that are actually worth watching in the first place ! Lets have more content and a lot less 'toys for boys' that only have one purpose in mind and that's to make a profit out of selling short life consumables.
 
robo
flyingscotsman
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
Here here.yes
Medidox
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
The EBU are interested in real people research not flogging product.  And that's why their conclusions are interesting. 
 
The "film brigade' are interested in quality and believe that 24fps somehow is more organic and feels right. But here is some very stringent testing done with real people showing that they could really see a massive difference when the frame rate went up to very high frame rates.  240fps etc.  I think everyone that was there would have to admit that something very different was going on. 
 
For most situations, the frame rates that we have been working with 24fps for film and 25 and 30 fps in tv have been fine.  But now that it is possible to increase the frame rate some really interesting things happen, there's more depth, there's more sharpness in places that you wouldn't expect to be sharp because we've never seen pictures presented in this way before. 
 
This will become a tool that gets used for specific productions and for fast action genres like sport it will make it very involving indeed.  All I can say is that you'll have to go and have a look and I think you will be genuinely surprised. 
 
I certainly was.
steve
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
robo wrote:
Yes, but was all this 'consumer testing' done with people who actually gave a damn or 'real people' ? There will come a point where Jo Public won't give a toss what it's filmed on or how detailed the pixels are on someone's spotty face. I wish they'd concentrate on making things that are actually worth watching in the first place ! Lets have more content and a lot less 'toys for boys' that only have one purpose in mind and that's to make a profit out of selling short life consumables.
 
robo
 
So maybe we should have stuck with system A transmissions, (405 line monochrome interlaced video). It was perfectly good enough for our predecessors, (and maybe some still here).
We could all enjoy polishing the veneered walnut cabinets when there wasn't anything that interested us on the one and only channel.
robo
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
Think you missed  my point Steve, I didn't say lets go back to the stone age, I did try to point out that Joe Public won't give a damn passed a certain point  and wouldn't it be better to put the effort into making something worth watching instead of being so bloody obsessed with the equipment. What the hell is the use in all this gear if the end result is just more badly produced, badly written and filmed rubbish? Just my opinion but it's kind of backed up by the fact that I may as well have just the one channel to choose from because all I have at present is 100 or more full of tripe - 4K tripe will still be tripe.
 
robo
infocus2
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
robo wrote:
......  and wouldn't it be better to put the effort into making something worth watching instead of being so bloody obsessed with the equipment. What the hell is the use in all this gear if the end result is just more badly produced, badly written and filmed rubbish? Just my opinion ......... - 4K tripe will still be tripe.
 
In one way it's impossible to disagree with those sentiments - but the flaw in the argument is that it seems to presuppose that it's got to be EITHER 4k rubbish OR stay with HD and hope for better content. In reality, you're talking about two totally separate issues - technical quality and production quality - and it doesn't have to be one or the other.
 
 There is also talk about these new cameras not necessarily being used for 4k as the final medium, but shooting 4k and taking advantage of the extra resolution to allow for reframing and still end up with full res HD. That seems to be especially of interest for such as wedding and event use. For example, it becomes feasible to have (say) a locked off camera on a balcony, and in the edit choose to use it full frame or a quarter centre crop - in either case the output will still be full HD. Or what if the action doesn't take place exactly where expected on a locked off camera? No problem - just reframe in post as required, as long as you've framed wide in the first place.
 
These cameras are first generation of their kind, and taking cost into account then anybody who's expecting an F5 cheap is naïve. But that said, they have a great deal of extremely interesting new technology being showcased, and maybe XAVC-S is the most significant. As said before, it means 4k recording at a datarate of about 150Mbs - way below the RAW rates needed for 4k recording up to now. (Or way below the cost of XAVC as implemented on the F55.) RAW as used on the Black Magic 4k may give more post flexibility, but at a huge cost in file size - I'm now hearing rumours Black Magic 4k RAW may be about 1,500Mbs (!!) - and that camera is only capable of up to 30p!! With XAVC-S it becomes feasible in a way to work post with 4k in a way it just isn't with the RAW offerings.
Medidox
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Re: 4k Sony prosumer camera - the PXW-Z100
From my point of view working in the medical field, my first thoughts before I saw 4k was; what's the point because the resolution increase is minor.  Why should we spend any time and money chasing an insignificant benefit? 
 
Now I've seen 4k and I've seen the difference and it has completely changed my opinion because although the resolution increase is so very slight, the change in depth, sharpness and dynamic range especially when getting pictures from a laproscope or an endoscope is going to be very significant indeed. For real world medical applications, for diagnosis and procedures this is a significant step up. 
 
(However, this really doesn't have much to do with the original topic!)