Sony FX1- The Dreaded Drop-outs !

[Kabera]

Just bought a Sony FX1 and did my first round of testing at an event. All in all, I am very pleased with the results. Excellent results under good lighting conditions and somewhat mediocre under poor ligting. Even the bulky size of the camera proved to be an advantage. There was very little unsteadiness even when shooting with the tele zoom free-hand.

Towards the last quarter of the tape I experienced 3 drop-outs in close succession. They lasted 1/2 second but were absolutely devastating and ruined what could have otherwise be a very fine camera. I have now been reading through other forums but no clear picture of the problem is emerging yet.

Is this a camera fault ? Does tape material makes any difference ?(I used JVC tape from Costco but regret that now !) What can I do to cure the problem. Take the camera back to Sony ?

Imagine this happens when you have to film a very important moment like a speech or wedding vow etc. What are your experiences ?

Barnard

[johnpr98]

Hi Barnard


I've had similar intermittent audio dropout problems (+ picture freeze)with my 2 Sony TRV33's, I am hoping to get diagnosis tomorrow. (both only just out of guarantee!).

I'd recommend using Sony tapes myself as that's what your camcorder is designed for, it shouldn't make any difference though.

Please keep us posted, if the dropouts continue your FX1 isn't fit for purpose , maybe it was just a bad tape?

I've also read about a FX1 audio switch problem :(
http://www.dvdoctor.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000174

[Alan Roberts]

Dropouts on the FX1 are devastating in ways that they aren't in DV. In normal DV recording, each frame stands alone, a dropout affects only a part of one frame. In HDV, a dropout, if it hits an I frame, can wipe out 12 frames because it's MPEG2 recording with a 12 frame GoP. We've been debating this matter for several weeks on this very board.

[johnpr98]

We've been debating this matter for several weeks on this very board.
Sorry Alan, think I missed that discussion, do you have the link?
Ooops! found it
http://www.dvdoctor.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=000002

Do you have a theory for Barnard's dropouts, tape or camcorder?

btw my dropouts were longer than one frame.

[Nigel Longman]

Originally posted by Kabera:
...Is this a camera fault ? Does tape material makes any difference ?(I used JVC tape from Costco but regret that now !) What can I do to cure the problem. Take the camera back to Sony ?..... What are your experiences ?....snipped by NL

Barnard Barnard

Sadly, Barnard, I have no experiences of this camera but if I did own one, and being aware of the possible effects of dropouts, I would lavish the best tapes on it that I could. I understand Sony have developed a new tape specifically aimed at HDV recording although I can't find the details at the moment.

Also you may like to draw some comfort from the fact that the drop-out performance of a new camera often improves over the first couple of hours of use as the heads lap themselves in against the tape.

Regards NL

[Kabera]

Thanks for your replies. Alan, I started a new thread on it because I felt the problem deserved its own thread. I keep you updated on progress in a few weeks.

Bernard

[Alan Roberts]

OK, good idea.

[Alan McKeown]

Bernard,

Sorry to read abut your problems with dropout. I do hope it is just a rogue tape as I am seriously considering ordering one of these camcorders!

Below are details of the Sony recommended tape in case you haven’t seen them yet.

Alan


Manufacturer: Sony

Part Number: DVM-63HD

Alternate Part Number: DVM63HD

Length: 63 minutes

General*Information:

Sony’s new DVM-63HD HD DVC tape offers the highest quality recording media for the consumer or prosumer making the step-up to an HD camcorder. It is the recommended media for Sony's new HDR-FX1 prosumer camcorder. Independent film makers, advertising agencies, and other videographers will appreciate the improved image quality, and the professional 63 minute tape duration. The DVM-63HD features 90% fewer errors and 50% fewer dropouts compared to DV Reference tape (tested on standard Sony DV VCR).

High Definition Video Recording:
• Designed for 1080i or 720p HDV recording and playback.
• 63 minutes recording time of 1080i video
• 3dB higher carrier-to-noise ratio vs. Premium DVC tape *
• Conforms to the MiniDV standard, yet is manufactured with much higher tolerances while incorporating the new AME II technology.
• New lubricant improves tape stability running under a wide range of operating conditions.
• The additional 3-minutes on the DVM63HD tape is for test recording. This helps the user calibrate the camera for best results. You can record the full 63 minutes of 1080i video. When recording in 720p HDV or in DV mode, you can record 94 min in LP and 63 min in SP setting.
Key Benefits:
• 90% fewer errors due to 40% increase in carrier-to-noise ratio*
• 50% fewer dropouts*
• 50% less tape shrinkage*
• 3db higher carrier-to-noise ratio*
* vs. Reference DV tape (industry standard) tested on standard Sony DV VCR

[johnpr98]

£16.00 a shot
http://www.stanleysonline.co.uk/product-3731.htm

[johnpr98]

Just found this discussion on dropouts with the FX1
http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/showthread.php?t=468

Just a little worrying, even with HDV tapes.

I also saw mention of Panasonic tapes been dry lubricant & Sony tapes been wet lubricant.

My problems have been with minidv, not HDV dropouts, in the last 2 months I have had a bucketfull!

Digiservice reported back today & said they could see nothing wrong with my Sony TRV33 camcorders re: guides etc.

I am paying for a professional clean on the bench & hope to have them back at the end of the week.
If this doesn't work, new heads.

My non tecnical mind is suspecting some tape manufacture problems, in nearly 5 years of using Digital 8 + 6 years of video 8 I don't recall any dropout problems.

This is getting bloody familiar :mad:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t111206.html

BINGO!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005TQKE/ref=ase_fmobile06-21/026-3400307-0149225
Not Impressed at All
Rating: 1
I've had two sets of these tapes now and have tried to use them with my Sony TRV33a. For some reason, they don't seem to be compatible. I get grey bars across the picture (indicating a dirty recording head) and the only way to fix the camera after using these tapes is to use a tape cleaner. It appears that something is being transferred to the tape head and causing a malfunction. All other MiniDV tapes are fine. Sony says that it it probably a bad batch.. I'll stick to the Premium tapes in future, I think.

[johnpr98]

I have had a couple of emails flying around last night on mixing brands of tapes in the camcorder.

In 1998 Sony tapes mixed with other tapes allegedy caused a chemical disaster.

Just found this old link http://www.unreal.co.nz/FUD_BUST.htm

One interesting note from our friends over at AOL's video SIG has come up (sorry, I'm not sure who wrote it):-
I've sat in on two meetings with Sony DV technicians and brought up this issue of DV drop-outs. They all agree that the problem is a result of mixing metal particle tape and metal vaporated tape in a DV transport. Their claim was stern and straight forward: Those that mix these two types in their DV machines are creating a chemical disaster in their transport that is resulting in the drop outs. The explanation is that one tape type (I forget which) leaves behind a microscopic metal dust; the other type leaves behind a lubricant residue. On their own, the dust and lubricant won't cause trouble, but when they mix, you create a sludge in the transport that eventually gets onto the tape or the heads.
Their advice: Don't try to re-invent the wheel -- use Sony tape in Sony equipment, and Panasonic tape in Panasonic equipment.
Has the Sony formulation changed for the worse & this scenario has re-appeared?

http://www.adamwilt.com/Tidbits.html
Mixing different brands of tape: In DV's early days, Sony and Panasonic tapes used different lubricants, and if you used one brand a lot and then switched to the other, incompatibilities between the lubricants (which get deposited on heads and tape guides) could cause VTRs to jam up or the heads to clog, sometimes permanently. Supposedly the lubricants were made compatible starting in 1997, but I'm still hearing horror stories about these problems in the summer of 2002.

This is not a DV/DVCAM vs. DVCPRO problem; while many of the people reporting the jams are inserting the occasional DV tape into a DVCPRO transport, many others are seeing the problem in DV and DVCAM equipment, which (high-end DVCAM gear aside) can't play back DVCPRO to begin with. It also happens when other brands of tape are intermingled, not just Sony and Panasonic.

Anecdotal evidence would seem to indicate that the biggest problems occur when one brand of tape is used exclusively for a long time, and then the other brand's tape is used: instant mess! If one switches back and forth between the different tape brands frequently, say, switching between Sony and Panasonic every three or four tapes, the problems don't seem to appear.

Frequent switching apparently prevents a critical mass of one lubricant building up in the transport; switching tapes may clean off accumulations of gunk before they get heavy enough to cause problems. Whether this is really a solution, or if frequent switching only leads to a longer-term buildup of cross-contamination pollution on the tapes themselves, is unknown.

I run about 50% Panasonic DV tapes in my gear, with the remainder being a mix of Sony DV or DVCAM, JVC, and the occasional Fuji. I've never had a problem. It's rare that I run more than four hours on one brand before using the other brand of tape, so that may be a good starting place as to what a safe interchange frequency may be.

Thus there appear to be two general approaches to this problem:

Pick one brand of tape, and “stick” with it (sorry about the pun!). You simply won't see the problem. If any foreign brand of tape comes into your facility, do not put it into your VTR; make a FireWire dub of it onto your chosen tape brand on your machine, using the client's camcorder or VTR as the source deck.
Interchange tape brands frequently, so the gunk from one never builds up a critical mass inside the transport to jam up the other tape when it's inserted. Always clean the heads when changing brands, too.
Problems with tape interchange of this sort seem to be reduced by using a tape cleaner in between the different tapes. Especially in this instance, do not rewind and reuse the cleaning tapes; you'll just be mixing old gunk with new if you do so. Also, do not wait until you've run one pass on the new brand tape and seen blockies or dropouts: using the cleaning tape at this point may only polish the gunks firmly into the heads. Clean the heads before inserting the new tape.

Your results may vary: and if you've had any positive or negative experiences of this sort, I'd like to hear your story...

[Alan McKeown]

That is all rather worrying, John.

If I do opt for the FX1 I would use only the official Sony HDV tapes.

I don’t think I have seen a problem reported with the FX1 and this tape. Not yet!

That doesn’t solve your DV tape dropout problems though!


Alan

[johnpr98]

here is a link on http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/showthread.php?t=468&page=2&pp=10&highlight=Tsunami about a guy going to Sri Lanka & filming a famous cricketer about the Tsunami,tape ruined because of glitches, he had previously used Sony Premium (or Excellence), ran a cleaning tape then switched to Sony HDV for this important trip, 8 tapes, 4 approx with glitches, cricketer interview spoiled.

Another story re: Freezes
http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/showthread.php?t=393

Just food for thought before you buy a FX1 (As I am tempted to do).

Another round up
http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/showthread.php?t=340&page=2&pp=10
This opens up a huge descussion/debate...

There are those who hold that this debate has been without merit for years, while many hold to the conclusion "just in case".

MiniDV tapes are all of rather high and uniform quality - they have to be since the magnetic data density is so high. To achieve this, the tape has to hold a very high amount of data in a small space, so the magnetic material "layer" of the tape must be very close to the electonic head, and a very fine "grit" of magnetic particles used. This all points to using Metal Evaporate as a deposition/manufacturing method (rather than Metal Particulate). It also means there can't be a thick protective slippery "top layer". The top layer is very thin (so the magnetic material ME layer underneath is closer to the head). This means that lubrication must be used as well so the thin top layer doesn't wear through (nor wear down the head).

What kind of lubrication? Sony (and some Panasonic Pro tapes) choose a "wet" lubricant - apparently some sort of liquid spread very thin but completely over the tape surface. An alternative would be a "dry" lubricant - apparently a fine powderized material spread thinly.

Particularly several years ago circa 1999, if you ran wet lubricated tapes through the camcorder (leaving a fine coating on the head, capstan, pinch rollers, etc.) , and then some dry lubed tapes (leaving traces of "powder"? behind, then some wet tapes, then some dry.... soon the dry and wet lubricants would MIX on the tape transport parts - and "gum" up resulting in problems of dropouts, tape jams, etc.

Sony reformulated their "wet" lubrication years ago so that it did not "react" with dry lubricants. However, if can be assumed that if lubricants (wet nor dry) NEVER get the chance to mix, then you can't have problems due to mixing and reacting lubricants. Thus, the advice to "always use the same brand of tape once you start" in your camcorder. Or a similar advice to not mix wet and dry lubricant tapes (by not using Sony and other tapes alternatingly which are almost always dry lubricated.) [Note that Panasonic has made tapes in which most are "dry" but some lines are "wet"...]

So... what to do? I usually use dry lubricated tapes myself, and use a head cleaning tape on the camcorder before putting a Sony tape in. (and after I use the Sony wet lubed tapes before I put a dry lubricated tape in). Others stick to the advice "start with Sony (wet) or a dry brand tape, and stick with it." Some claim that they mix wet and dry but use only recently made Sony (wet) tapes and there indeed is no longer any "gumming/reaction" problems with traces of both wet and dry lubricants on their tape transport parts.

So... there it is. To be certainly safe (at least from this problem), just use the same MiniDV tape uniformly (same tape line and part number), or just use tape from the same manufacture (who will presumably make sure all THEIR lubricants at least don't react together). Or run a cleaner between tapes with different lubricants, or you can choose to disreguard this issue completely (and many who have done so don't have problems).

[Ed Stradling]

I had real problems in 1999 but that was with Panasonic kit (a Panny camcorder and the DV10000 DV recorder), both of which struggled with mosaic patterning on Sony mini DV tapes recorded on Sony equipment. Not full size tapes, they were fine.

HOwever I changed my deck to a Sony DHR-1000, which played just about everything I chucked in it.

[Richard Payne]

So far about 10 Sony Excellence tapes run through our FX1 with no dropouts or problems.

[johnpr98]

Found another report
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194872
've always used, and never had any problems with the Sony Premium DV tapes.
This is also one of the few occassions where I will dissagree with Roy. I do think that you should stick to the same tapes for your camcorder. I have seen others have problems and therefore expensive repairs on DV cams. The report they got back with the repaired cam stated that the heads were clogged & dirty. In all cases they just bought whatever were the cheapest branded DV tapes they could at the time. This may just be coincidence, but I would rather play it safe.

[steve]

Had my FX1 since video forum and so far experienced only 1 dropout. All my tapes are Sony DVM60 Premium, which I have been using for 6 years on my TRV900E. Never paid more than 4ukp, usually less than 3ukp.
Interestingly, the dropout only appeared once, subsequent attempts to display it have failed. The tape was fresh when I got the camera, and has a number of experimental clips on it so it has been rewound I would say at least 10 times, and removed to do DV work on other tapes about three times.

Although its early days, I'm not concerned about dropouts ATM.

Steve

[johnpr98]

Hi Steve

I've had 2 dropouts on my FX1 with NEW Sony Premium tape. (3 tapes)

When I recaptured the first tape with a dropout it was OK, the second wasn't retrievable.

So far it hasn't been an issue, as I am not recording critical, unrepeatable video.

I am going to buy some Sony Excellence tape for the FX1 as this seems to be a better bet.
Pricebuster seem to have the best price (for 10)
£6.65 delivered?

Regards

[Ed Stradling]

I've not had one yet on the Z1E but I've only done about an hour's recording!

[johnpr98]

Ed

Which tape are you using?

Cheers

[hedleyw]

With reference to mixing of brands causing problems, presumably the same applies to the capture device? This could be awkward as I've always used the professional Panasonic tapes in my VX2000 and PD-170.

Am I walking into trouble using Sony tapes on a Sony Z1E and capturing through the same DSR-11?

[steve]

John,

The issues between different brands of tape seems fairly well known these days, but what about mixing different products from the same manufacturer, i.e. Sony Premium vs. Sony Excellence vs. Sony DVM-63HD. Are Sony's lubricant formulations entirely compatible. I think that Their choice of ME coating rather than MP help with shedding and head contact, but I've never seen any independant evidence.

In all the years with the TRV900E, I had the heads cleaned only twice when repairs were being carried out, and that accounts for over 400 head running hours. Pretty well all of those hours were using 'Normal' (Premium) tapes with no dropouts that I could remember, even though they would be less noticeable in SD DV.

Steve

[simon ferrigan]

I was concerned about dropouts before I bought my fx1 but I've filmed about 4 hours so far with sony excellence tapes and no problems so far. I'd prefer not to pay the extra money but if I continue without dropouts I can't see me switching, just in case.

simon

[Bruce Rawlings]

I have a Z1 and use Sony Premium mini dv and DVCam professional tapes. Have shot a dozen or more without any drop out. Would not dream of using anything other than Sony tape.

[Robin Davies-Rollinson]

Likewise, except the majority of tapes I use are just the Sony Premium...

[johnpr98]

A couple more links (PaulD):
http://www.cinematography.net/Pages%20DW/AG-DVX100ProneToDropOuts.htm

http://www.creativecow.net/forum/view_thread.php?threadid=792694&forumid=162&postid=111172874697805

[steve]

With all this talk of head running hours etc., does anybody know at what NVM addresses the FX1/Z1 models store the data in so that it can be read by a RM95 Service Remote? I have one of these and the ability to check on the hours and dates etc., is very useful.
Come to think of it, these HDV cameras warrant a website like John Beale's TRV900 which is an invaluable source of information.

Steve