Buying a HD Camera

[Peanuts]

Hi everyone,
I think this is my first input since I joined sooo long ago after Computer Video magazine disappeared from my breakfast table.
I’ve been rummaging through the forums picking up useful info recently, but am still undecided about buying a new camera.
I’m just looking for feedback really as I have to make the decision myself but after writing and rewriting my For/Against lists for each camera I'm STILL stuck.

My Background:
I’ve been producing low budget adverts, music videos and corporate videos for some years now moving from photography to video in 1997. I’ve been using my old trusty XL-1 camera for everything until last year with my first shot at HD, again low budget but a notch up from previous ones. I’ve been using Avid Xpress since 2000 and now with Xpress Pro HD.

I shot using a Panasonic HVX200 and simply loved the workflow. The logical next step was then to buy a HPX500 I thought. A Shoulder Camera, P2, 2/3” Chip, light (use my existing jib + Steadycam), over/undercranking and the return on my investment might work out! (It has to run for a good few years!)
Then I read about it's limitations and Sony comes up with XDCam Ex and I read here about the Ikegami GF CAM HDS-V10 and HDN-X10. That and the Sony PDW-F355L would push my budget, but at least I'm starting to get a few bigger jobs now (where I'll probably need to turn up with a shoulder camera!)

I really have to make a decision and would appreciate anyone’s thoughts.
Thanks

[steve phillipps]

Very tricky decision, and you've pretty much covered all the options there, each having it's issues. HPX500 bit low res, crappy VF, Sony F355 good pics but 1/2" lens may limit you, EX cameras have rolling shutter issues and not full size shoulder cams. My advice would be to surf the forums to see if you're missing anything or anything you hadn't considered, there's plenty of discussion already been done.
Best of luck.
Steve

[Peanuts]

Thanks Steve, there’s so many things influencing my decision, but I suppose the main one is that it's my entry into the HD shoulder camera area which means I have to buy EVERYTHING. For that reason I'm going to go for the HPX500 for which there are really good package deals. Due to it's low weight it also means I can use my existing Jib and steadycam etc.

What really does take my fancy though, is the Ikegami GFcam HDS-V10.
Unfortunately it's not yet available, but any week now. Here in Austria they tell me it should be 24,000 Euros RRP and the GF Pak 32GB Flash Memory Pack at 730 Euros, with it's USB connecter you can connect the pack straight to the PC/Mac - SIMPLE.
I'll have to earn a bit more before it's a real option, but I'll be following any test results very carefully. On paper it's sounds great - But then what doesn't !!?

[steve phillipps]

Also, be careful with these slightly left-field cameras, very often there is a reason why certain cameras are the most popular. The Thomson Infinity is another one which sounds good on paper but just hasn't caught on - why is that? There are likely to be real reasons.
The HPX500 is good in lots of ways, but no getting away from the fact that the sensors are only barely above standard def (600,000 pixels I believe, vs. 1 million for the 720 cams, and 2.2 million for the 1080s). Viewfinder is CRAP too, almost impossible to tell if subject is in focus if it's moving. The picture look is soft but pleasant is how best I can describe what I saw.
Steve

[Peanuts]

I always thought it was the huge marketing campaigns that made Cameras more popular ;)
I tend to go for the underdog myself (being one)
I used to think of Sony as being overpriced for what they offer. It doesn't mean it's not good gear though.
In the end it will always come down to what you can afford, or what kind of returns you know you can generate. I'm always nervous about investing in this branch where it'll be old technology in a couple of months time, but it can't be avoided.
I agree with you that the HPX500 pictures are "softer", due to the uprezing I suppose. The punchier, sharper pictures from Sony would probably suit the clients better, though I prefer it to be a bit softer and more "natural", but I'm not making videos for me!

I still don't like the idea of Long GOP in post and I do like the idea of Solid State - NO moving parts.

You worry me there with the Viewfinder though, that really is a problem!

[steve phillipps]

I gather you can put a better VF on it, but it's almost as much as the camera!
I shoot wildlife so fast moving subjects on long lenses, so maybe my requirements are pretty strict, and on normal lenses it'd me manageable.
Apparently Long GOP from XDCam is pretty good.
Steve

[infocus]

.........which means I have to buy EVERYTHING. For that reason I'm going to go for the HPX500 for which there are really good package deals.
To sound a note of caution, package deals can be all very well, but all too often are a means of offloading the bits and pieces that aren't the best sellers in their own right. Now why could that be.....?

As far as what camera system to go for, there's a lot to be said for a policy of going with whatever your clients prefer. I believe the HPX500 may have a lower approval rating than other 2/3" cameras for such as Discovery Network - sometimes there's a reason things are cheap..... The GFCAM looks good on paper, but is new and I don't know of anyone who's committed to the system. That's less of a problem if you deliver a final product than rushes, obviously. It does use MPEG2 at 50 and 100 Mbs, so hopefully should be OK for NLE support - that's worth checking though.

May be too much for you, but if anything seems to be being heralded as "the new Betacam" it's probably the Sony PDW700. Certainly worth checking out. If nothing else, the fact that a number of big networks have committed to it might mean that it holds it's value better than some other cameras which seem a better bargain initially.

[Peanuts]

I suppose I'm just old fashioned when it comes to compressions and I'll have to get used to the fact that they're the way forward.

Infocus, you're right about packages, but it's only Camera, lens and P2 cards, and I know it's a cheap (relatively) camera coupled with a budget lens. The weight of the camera means I can use my old gear, another BIG saving. It's all down to numbers as usual.

I'm still not very happy with this solution though, with Cameras like the PDW700 out there waiting for me! Your point about a better investment is absolutely right. the HPX500 surely won't bring in much when I'm ready to move on.

[SimonMW]

The Thomson Infinity is another one which sounds good on paper but just hasn't caught on - why is that? There are likely to be real reasons.

Very high power consumption, abysmal low light performance compared to the new offerings from Panasonic and Sony, not exactly the most noise free picture.

Mind you, I don't think that this particular moment in time is a very good period in which to purchase a new 2/3" camera! This economic downturn is really going to hit many video production companies very hard.

[Peanuts]

Very high power consumption, abysmal low light performance compared to the new offerings from Panasonic and Sony, not exactly the most noise free picture.

One of the things the Ikegami guys were promoting (maybe slightly biased here) with the GFcam was their low light performance and quality and that the front end is the same as the studio cameras used by the National TV Station here in Austria (is that a good thing?). They seem to be aiming for the Avid systems with the workflow (which suits me) the HDN-X10 using the 145 Avid DNxHD Codec.
As I say, I'll be waiting on the first real life tests before I'd consider a buy but I'm intrigued!

Well thanks for the responses - I think I'm going to be having nightmares tonight !

[infocus]

They seem to be aiming for the Avid systems with the workflow (which suits me) the HDN-X10 using the 145 Avid DNxHD Codec.
I think you'll find that was the previous Ikegami system (hard disk based?). The GFCAM is based on 50 or 100Mbs MPEG2, and can be either long GOP or I-frame only. I believe the reason for the change was to make it more NLE agnostic.

See http://www.ikegami.com/IKEGAMI_TOSHIBA_TAPELESS_ENG.html , section towards the end of the page, just left of a picture of the camera.

[Peanuts]

Yes the GFCam is MPEG2 in the MXF wrapper, it's the HDN-X10 Editcam that uses the Avid DNxHD Codec and the FieldPak2 which you're right is a Hard Disc unit.
http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/hdtv_camera_frame1.html
But that'll be out of my price range.

Talking of prices has anyone had experience with Globalmediapro internet shop?
http://www.globalmediapro.com/
I actually prefer the "hands on" suppliers where I can go in to talk to the people and actually see and try out the equipment there. That's what I like about IBC and the Video Forum shows.

[Mark M]

As for Global Media Pro, my instinct would be to avoid them. They don't display any physical address or means of contacting them on their website (which is a breach of e-commerce regulations). If you try and use the contact us form on their website it only works if you have an invoice number to refer to. Furthermore their T&Cs seem to refer to NZ, not UK, law

Also, I suspect, given that their guarantees are only for a year, that these are mostly grey-imported goods, which may or may not concern you. But their prices are not particularly competitive anyhow!! So I would just say no.

[Peanuts]

Thanks Mark.
Spending that kind of money through an internet shop would worry me anyway.
What's a normal guarantee length for this type of gear?

[Mark M]

Sony professional equipment (being the only brand with which I have direct experience) sold bona fide in the UK comes with at least 2 years guarantee which includes provision on replacement equipment if they can't fix yours within a certain amount of time:

http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&category=BC&contentId=1172517861399&sectiontype=Home&preserveContext=true

HTH

Mark

[Alan Craven]

As for Global Media Pro, my instinct would be to avoid them. They don't display any physical address or means of contacting them on their website (which is a breach of e-commerce regulations). If you try and use the contact us form on their website it only works if you have an invoice number to refer to. Furthermore their T&Cs seem to refer to NZ, not UK, law

Also, I suspect, given that their guarantees are only for a year, that these are mostly grey-imported goods, which may or may not concern you. But their prices are not particularly competitive anyhow!! So I would just say no.

GlobalmediaPro is a New Zealand company. The registered office address is in Auckland. This was discussed on this forum some time ago.

This is the registered detail of the company:

Globalmediapro (NZ) Limited
PO Box 82206,
Auckland,
New Zealand
fax +64 9 353 1344
websites www.globalmediapro.com

They now list themselves with this postal address: Level 20, ASB Tower, 135 Albert St., Auckland. Phone number: 0-9-353 1235

They used to be listed in Auckland trade directories with an address in Bucklands Beach, which is a residential suburb.

Their stock is probably officially produced for the Pacific region, i.e. Australia/New Zealand, etc., or possibly Japan. It will be PAL, but the specifications are not always the same as for the UK market, and the warranty terms are often a lot poorer.

[Peanuts]

Thanks guys.

A general question about Ikegami. I really don't know anything about them as I always presumed they were only High End and well out of my range. How's their reputation amongst you guys?

[paulears]

Er.... they are high end, and certainly out of my range. They are well known in broadcast circles, but are rarely seen outside of broadcast circles.

[Peanuts]

Is that because they've never targeting anyone else until now?

The GFCam is being quoted to me for 22,000 Euros. I'm wondering weather to put a hold on buying something like the HPX500 and waiting on reports about the GFCam (and until I've saved up some more). Maybe test one on an upcoming project.

[infocus]

A general question about Ikegami. ........... How's their reputation amongst you guys?
Very good, though they've been a bit out of the picture for a while. They are predominantly into CAMERAS, as opposed to camcorders, and probably are best known for the HL79 series.

That was around in the late 70's and 80's in the early days of ENG. The normal recorder was a U-matic BVU50, and the preferred camera was an HL79. Some users (such a ITN) went all Sony with the 330 camera head, and whilst pictures were comparable the Ikegami was generally considered far more rugged.

Ikegami did do a DVCAM camcorder, comparable to a DSR500, which I've heard good things about. They were early promoters of "tapeless", and developed the "Editcam" using hard drive based technology. That can most kindly be said to have been ahead of it's time, and at one quite significant demo it got effectively ruled out by one potential purchaser before it could even produce a picture due to it's switch on time! (About 45 seconds if I remember correctly.)

The GFCAM looks far more interesting, especially if you are a self contained operation, though I would strongly advise checking the time taken from switching power on to being ready to record! ;) Should be much better than the hard drive version though. I think it's a shame they went for a proprietary media solution, rather than using SxS, though their packs are probably comparable price wise with P2.

I've only seen a prototype, but I would expect it to be a considerable step up from an HPX500, which comes as a disappointment to people well used to 2/3" cameras. On the other hand, the HPX500 is cheap. Note that the HPX500 only does DVCProHD, not AVC-Intra like the other 2/3" P2 cameras, so codec wise I'd say the GFCAM has a strong edge in theory.

[Peanuts]

Thanks for that Infocus - Very Informative and helps me a great deal.

The GF Pack has been quoted to me as 770 Euros 32GB and 1,440 64GB. Their selling point (of view) is the USB connectivity (no extras/players needed), robustness and that it's not too small and fiddly (to get lost!), but in partnership with Hitachi, they probably want to keep it as a nice little earner.

I'm waiting for the supplier to let me know when there's a GFCam available here to have a look at. I'm keen to test it and the workflow with Avid.

[infocus]

The GF Pack has been quoted to me as 770 Euros 32GB and 1,440 64GB.
Pretty competitive - a typical dealers price here at the moment for 32GB is Euro 1,150 for P2, and 1,000 for SxS. (Both prices excl VAT)
[/QUOTE]Their selling point (of view) is the USB connectivity (no extras/players needed), robustness and that it's not too small and fiddly (to get lost!), ........ [/QUOTE]
Worth noting is that it has USB and S-ATA connectivity. There's no mention of max data rates that the memory is capable of, so it may be worthwhile finding out how fast it is capable of downloading at.

It looks interesting, but I think it would be even better if it took SxS.

[Peanuts]

Well, the latest from Ikegami here in Austria is that the GFPak has USB 2 with max data rates of 480mbs of which they reach 70 to 80% and the S-ATA has a max data rate of 1.5GB again with a 70 - 80% efficiency.
The prices I quoted were all without tax.
They also have quoted the start up time of the GFCam as being 4 seconds.
I'm waiting for a demo camera to try out in November, and will update the info here when I can.

I had a look at the HPX500 the other day and the viewfinder was a disappointment, which is not good for shooting in what is supposed to be HD after all. There is another viewfinder available, but that'll push the price up of course.
Otherwise the camera itself had some good points and is really light.