EX cameras using cheap memory [Archive]

infocus

7th October 2008, 19:30

I've just been pointed to a website giving details of how to use (very) cheap SDHC memory in the EX1/EX3 cameras. The pictorial "equation" at the bottom of the page just about says it all: http://www.glasseye.com.au/articles/sdassxs/

There's apparently been quite a lot of discussion about it on other forums, and the conclusion seems to be that as long as you stick to the recommended adaptor and cards, it's rock solid stable. The only disadvantage seems to be that overcranking speed is limited to 40fps, though the concensus seems to find it of little importance for most - just have one or two "real" SxS cards for that.

Downloading from an SDHC card won't be as fast as from SxS, but it opens the door to simultaneous downloading (with the right reader) from several SDHC cards at the same time.

Interesting to know what Sony make of it. On the one hand, they miss out on sales of expensive SxS cards, on the other, the predictions are that it is already leading to increased sales of EX1/EX3s.

pkbristol

7th October 2008, 19:39

What do you need to know.
I'm using the cheaper cards, Transcend 16gb with the kensington 7 in 1 card reader(SDHC>SXS), with no problems.
I'm using the Transcend SDHC>USB reader to offload.

I can get the 16gb Transcend for £25.

The EX1 needs a firmware upgrade to be able to use these cards and reader.

I have the firmware needed ( V1.11).
I've done my own upgrade on my EX1 and my colleagues EX1.

If anyone has any questions, fire away.

Paul.

paultv

7th October 2008, 20:18

Yup, it works well, the newly dubbed KxS format appears the most solid, that is the Sandisk Ultra II SDHC card (15mbs) at £36 per 16 gb and a Kensington 7in1 card reader at about £13.99 from Amazon, so for around £150 you have 72GB of storage.

Just to confirm you need firmware 1.11 in your EX1 for this to work, and you can't close the media door on the EX1 either with this combo - although you can
if you have an EX3!

Tests on many other card types have been undertaken, sadly the AFT adapter which allows a closed door shows write errors on occasion and is not to be trusted.

all in all this is fab, slightly cheaper than your average 16gb SxS card.

I'm getting 16 gb into my laptop in 13 mins using the Kensington into my express card slot.

I have a large selection of useless media readers for ebay!!

Paul

fuddam

7th October 2008, 22:09

so the EX3 works with it straight away?

sounds velly schweet, ja?

JGNattrass

8th October 2008, 00:01

Just to put some water on this fire make sure you are aware that these cards are not for full 1920x1080 35mbs HD recording only for lower SD type bit rates, you may loose material.

I am sure Alan will come to assist with the tech bit, but a pint will not fit into a half pint pot.

I personally bought Z7 and S270 cameras as the CF media is low cost for SD and HDV production and I also have a tape back-up as well.

I think you will be very brave to totally rely on cheaper cards as your main recording medium.

paultv

8th October 2008, 07:00

Wrong, the KxS combination has been tested to full HQ at 35mbs and up to 40 fps overcrank in HQ modes for the last 3 weeks without error, by many EX1 and EX3 owners around the world.

The data rates of the Ultra II (15Mbs) and Extreme III (30Mbs) cards give a 40% ceiling over normal 35mbs HQ record for these cameras.

Using express cards such as lexar SSD will only work at SP levels before failing, true.

Paul

Alan Roberts

8th October 2008, 08:46

To try to clear the water a bit:

The performance of memory cards is variable: not all electronic devices will fail to work at a specified data rate, some will do better some will do worse. What the manufacturers normally do is to make large batches of devices, and test them to see how fast they'll go. At the cheapest level, they may test one device in every 10,000 on the rpoduction line; if it passes, they all pass; if it fails, the whole batch would be set aside for a retest at a lower data rate, possibly one in every 1/000, and so on. So, the manufacturers have batches of devices that pass different hurdles of data rate, and are labelled accordingly.

It's always possible that any single device may do far better than the batch it belonged to, or even far worse. There are no absolutes in this game. However, in the very highest speed ratings, every individual device is tested. This costs much more because it's very slow, and is why P2 is expensive, it uses devices that are all, individually, tested to make sure that everything will run at the full speed. I believe the same holds true for SxS and for the cards RED use.

So, cheaper cards may well work. But I'd not buy lots of them.

infocus

8th October 2008, 09:35

I think you will be very brave to totally rely on cheaper cards as your main recording medium.
There can be several reasons why cards can be cheaper, amongst them lower reliability - the unbranded cards. That's not what is being talked about here, the KxS (wish I'd thought of that....:)) combination is specifically one adaptor, and Sandisk Ultra II or ExtremeIII cards, and I'd say they are about as reliable as solid state memory is likely to be. I've said before that I like the hybrid tape/solid state nature of the Z7, but if you want to go totally solid state, be it HPX170, HMC151, EX or whatever, I don't see the KxS combination as a problem. Loss of material is far more likely to come from finger trouble than equipment.

The reason they are much cheaper than true SxS cards is that their performance in terms of write/read speeds is lower. In practice the testing seems to have proved pretty conclusively that they're more than "good enough" for normal filming at the highest quality of the EX. The only caveat is if you want overcranking - filming at higher than normal frame rates to give slow motion playback. KxS will do it to an extent as Paul says, (40fps), but to get the full speed you need real SxS cards. For the vast majority of people that isn't an issue.

Whilst the headline prices of cameras get compared, it's probably better to compare "cost of ownership" figures, especially with solid state taking a foothold. A better guide then might be the cost of the camera plus two hours worth of media for recording. For the three cameras mentioned above, that's 8 16GB P2 cards for the HVX171, 2 16GB cards for the HMC151, and 3 16GB cards for the EX, because of the different bitrates.

Respective costs for the cameras alone are (approx & excl VAT) £2,500 (HVX171), £2,300 (HMC151) and £3,800 (EX1, incl 1 8GB card).

Add in the costs of 2 hours of memory, and the prices become (approx):

HVX171 - £6,300
HMC151- £2,400
EX1 (SxS)- £5,100
EX1 (KxS)- £4,000

My own conclusions are that I can see very little reason to get an HVX171, period. The EX is a far better camera than the Panasonic ones, but the question may have been whether it's worth over twice as much as the HMC151. Use KxS, bring the £5,100 down to £4,000, and the choice becomes much more difficult. It also makes it much more attractive relative to a Z7.

Wicked

8th October 2008, 09:41

Like has been said in many of the posts and in the article, I am very, very keen to spend my money with Sony on the EX1 but while I am in the position that requires me to buy media that will cost me as much as the cameras in the first place I am not going near it. I am very, very interested in this solution....

infocus

8th October 2008, 09:57

The performance of memory cards is variable: ..........

It's always possible that any single device may do far better than the batch it belonged to, or even far worse. There are no absolutes in this game. ..........

So, cheaper cards may well work. But I'd not buy lots of them.
Tucked away in that article (and amplified in other discussions) is the comment
Just make sure you buy from a reliable/reputable source and test each card well before you use it for production.
In practice (as Paul seems to be comfirming) the vast majority of the cards seem to be working flawlessly. Conceivably, you may get one that's far worse than the rest of the batch, but it should show up on a fairly simple overcrank test. If I bought five cards, 4 managed 40fps, and 1 only managed 30fps, I'd be suspicious.

If the difference in cost was only 10%, maybe even 20%, I doubt it would be worth it. But the price difference is so huge that it can mean the difference between getting an EX or not. It may even make the difference between downloading in the field, or waiting to download back at base. My feeling is that field downloading is far more risky overall than using a KxS combination!

Alan Roberts

8th October 2008, 10:09

Yep, that's right.

pkbristol

8th October 2008, 10:37

I have no need for offloading in the field now, i sold 2 of my sxs cards,one of which paid for arond 6 hours worth of transcend cards, that's 6 hours recording in HQ.
I'm probably going to sell another sxs card and just keep one for overcranking.

If anyone has got the firmware then doing the upgrade yourself is easy, takes about 20-30 mins.

Paul.

StevenBagley

8th October 2008, 11:14

Tucked away in that article (and amplified in other discussions) is the comment

Just make sure you buy from a reliable/reputable source and test each card well before you use it for production.

I'd add to that the qualifier 'in the environment they are to be used'... As Alan said, electronic devices performance is variable, and it varies with heat as well. So while a combination might work in the UK winter, it may not work in the middle of an African Summer... It's why people who overclock their computers use serious cooling (and often do other 'clever' things like undervolting the chip).

Steven

infocus

8th October 2008, 11:46

Interesting thought, and deserves investigation. Who's going to put their EX in the oven.....?

My initial reaction is that I don't see the cards doing anything like failing to work at all - they are identical to what millions of tourists use in consumer cameras on holidays in hot climates all the time. Lowering of performance is another thing, but they do seem to have a fair bit of headroom if they permit 40fps overcranking.

There may be an argument for at least getting the faster Extreme III cards. Any differences may not show much at 20-25C, but may be more relevant in extreme temperatures.

Of course, the next step comes if Sony introduce the 50Mbs mode to the EX range, will the same cards still work then.....? ;)

Wicked

8th October 2008, 12:24

Alan Roberts

8th October 2008, 13:04

Panasonic reckon that P2 will work from -40 to +40, guaranteed, that's what you pay for, reliability. Running any data store faster than it's spec speed is going to increase the power usage and heat, so maybe these cheaper cards could fail at higher temperatures. There are people who record at -40 (wildlife shooting has many of them) and +40's not that uncommon either (just think of Wimbledon in summer, a sweaty camera under a green blanket).

pkbristol

8th October 2008, 14:05

pkbristol - If I buy one new now will it come with the firmware. If not, and I haven't got the firmware, how/who can I get it from?
I am fairly sure I've asked a stupid and obvious question, but I am looking for clarity at the moment before spending a wadge of cash....
It should come with the new firmware.
Next question > take a wild guess !!
PM me if you want.

paulkellett1971@hotmail.co.uk

Paul.

paultv

8th October 2008, 14:43

On the operating temperature note,

I took my EX1 to Basra in Iraq in August for 3 days using standard SxS cards from Sony - I shot for many hours in hideous temperatures, 52 celsius daytime, 45 celsius night.

I and my colleagues experienced no failures with either the EX1, digital stills cameras and two laptops for recording music.

The item which suffered most was 1) my old Canon 8mm camera - stock got fried and looks very odd after processing 2) The Human Beings.

I've run my EX1 in full sun with an outdoor temperature of 28 celsius recording a timelapse here in Ibiza using KxS combo, for 5 hours ! you could cook paella on the camera body - but no strange behaviour from the cards.

It all looks pretty robust.

Paul

Alan Roberts

8th October 2008, 15:41

I don't doubt you, Paul, but I still don't think that provides enough reassurance that all such cards will work under such conditions. That would need verification by the manufacturers.

infocus

8th October 2008, 16:04

Panasonic reckon that P2 will work from -40 to +40, guaranteed, that's what you pay for, reliability.
I don't really find that very impressive. Transcend guarantee their normal range between -13C and 85C, which seems a range far more likely to be encountered, as the card location in the equipment is always likely to be warmer than ambient. Sandisk guarantee that their range will work "from glaciers to deserts"!

It's quite easy to encounter shade temperatures above 40C in hot countries. The cards are likely to get far hotter than that due to generated heat in the camera. I did hear one story that P2 cards are actually *LESS* reliable than basic SD cards, owing to the weakest link being the controlling electronics within the card, not the memory itself. Sounds plausible, but who knows? Certainly such as Sandisk SDHC have a lifetime guarantee, but Panasonic have been very reticent about whether the same can be said for P2. (In practice I think the chance of failure of either a P2, SD, or SxS card in normal use is small enough to be not worried about.)
Running any data store faster than it's spec speed is going to increase the power usage and heat, so maybe these cheaper cards could fail at higher temperatures.
In this case they are being run well below spec. Even the cheaper, slower ones are 15MBs rated (120Mbs), so run at well under a third of rated speed.
I've run my EX1 in full sun with an outdoor temperature of 28 celsius recording a timelapse here in Ibiza using KxS combo, for 5 hours ! you could cook paella on the camera body - but no strange behaviour from the cards.
That's good enough for me. Now we need to find someone to take an Ex with KxS to the arctic.......

treborsnave

8th October 2008, 16:26

Wow, there goes a significant chunk of sony media profits ;-)

Alan Roberts

8th October 2008, 16:38

The -40~+40 range was a top-of-the-head figure quoted by a Panasonic guy at the Guild Awards yesterday, almost as an aside (he'd been asked "why is P2 so expensive", and was explaining that all the selection and testing costs money because it's manual). I don't believe it either, it has to be better than that.

HallmarkProductions

8th October 2008, 16:41

We have armed ourselves with an EX3, the Kensington adaptor, Transcend 8 and 16gb cards, plus the new 60gb hard drive for the EX cameras. Note that the hard drive will not do overcranking either.

The EX3 "feels" much better than the EX1, and has a great viewfinder. With a little tweaking, it sits more into the shoulder, and is a lot easier to handle than the EX1.

The viewfinder is much better than the Z7 in my opinion.

The EX3 is a great camera, and should be considered as an alternative to EX1 even though it is much more expensive.

The earlier comparison of disc format type HD camera did not include XDCAM HD - remember 23gb media is around £13, and the cameras are "proper" shoulder mount designs with high quality lenses available. Also, they can shoot in DVCAM mode. If you need a lot of media, the cost differential soon reduces from sxs/P2 media. Still not as cheap as HDV tape though!

Chris

Chrome

8th October 2008, 17:43

Chris, if the camera will be always tripod based, and a feed out via HD-SDI to a recorder and HD production monitor, do you think that the difference in price between EX1 and 3 would still be justified? Just asking as I'm pricing something like this for a proposal.

HallmarkProductions

8th October 2008, 19:43

The other factor is of course the ability to put different lenses on. For us, it means we can take a lens from our F350 and slot it onto the EX3 (mind you, we only have 1 lens for it!).

Some things that could prove relevant to us are time code sync, and also being able to rack control the camera - great for OB work. Are these things relevant for you - could be a decision maker there?

It really is much better to hand hold than the EX1, but if you are always tripod based, and using a reference monitor, and not bothered about the lens, then probably go EX1, I would say. As far as I am aware there is no difference in picture quality. As you know the difference is about £1800, so, I guess it depends on how much you will use the other features
This comparison might help you
http://www.internetvideomag.com/Articles_2008/090208_SonyHD_Camcorder.htm

Chris

infocus

8th October 2008, 20:56

he'd been asked "why is P2 so expensive", and was explaining that all the selection and testing costs money because it's manual
Which of course totally fails to explain why P2 (yet none of it's competitors) NEEDS all that manual selection and testing, which is the nub of the question. I do hope someone went on to query that? ;)

Because it's something that was essential when P2 was conceived, has to continue for P2 compatability, but is no longer necessary in a different system. Panasonic won't tell you that, but I'd love to have heard how he tried to explain it away. :)

Even recently their line was that it was the only way for broadcast quality video - when the Convergent Design XDR or Red are mentioned to a Panasonic rep they tend to go quiet.......

And whilst you can manually select for speed, I don't think you can to predict how reliable a chip will be, how long it will last. I believe P2 cards to be very reliable, but I don't think there's any evidence that they are statistically any more so than such as genuine Transcend or Sandisk Sd or CF cards.

If KxS allows for having many times the storage for the price, so not having to field download, I'd guess that to be a far more significant reliability factor than anything to do with the tiny chance of card failure.

Tony7

20th October 2008, 14:27

What if you buy the EX1 a bit later and its a newer firmware, how would that work with the SDHC cards i wonder.

tony

Alan Roberts

20th October 2008, 14:31

He didn't try to explain it, because (I suspect) he's no real idea. He said he'd moved to Panasonic from being a programme producer, so was totally non-technical. Pushing him further would have had no effect.

pkbristol

20th October 2008, 15:21

What if you buy the EX1 a bit later and its a newer firmware, how would that work with the SDHC cards i wonder.

tony

Lets say 6 months from now i want another EX1 or EX3 but the newest firmware at the time doesn't allow use of these cheap cards, well i wouldn't buy the camera, simple as that, and sony know this.
We've all had a taste of how cheap things can be regarding media storage, no one wants to go backwards now.

Paul.

Tony7

20th October 2008, 15:28

There you are, thats a straight answer. Thanks, well, what about the already bought EX1/Ex3 and a new firmware, Just worry about that at the time I suppose.

Thanks Paul

pkbristol

20th October 2008, 15:47

There you are, thats a straight answer. Thanks, well, what about the already bought EX1/Ex3 and a new firmware, Just worry about that at the time I suppose.

Thanks Paul

I don't understand.
A new EX1 or EX3 should have the latest firmware which enables the use of cheap cards.
If it doesn't have this firmware then the firmware is easy enough to get hold of and easy enough to install.

Paul.

Tony7

20th October 2008, 16:09

Hi Paul what I meant was...I was thinking of the already owned EX1/EX3 cameras that now work with the cheaper cards and a newer firmware comes out in a few months time, then what, upgrade the firmware or not. Its just a thought... and its not easy to answer who knows whats round the corner.

Tony

infocus

20th October 2008, 22:32

.........a newer firmware comes out in a few months time, then what, upgrade the firmware or not. Its just a thought...
It's a very good thought, and I doubt the answers known yet.

What does seem to be the case though is that if Sony did update the firmware to stop the use of SDHC cards, it would also render all their EX harddrive units useless at the same time. I don't see it happening.

More to the point is that for both Sony and Panasonic, the genie is really out of the bottle. Little more than a year ago someone quite senior from Panasonic publicly stated that cheaper than P2 forms of memory weren't capable of recording broadcast spec video, and about the same time I heard a Sony rep say that CF cards weren't good enough for the EX.

Could they get away with the same statements now? I doubt it. Convergent Design have certified some fairly cheap (133x) cards for 100Mbs with their XDR. So if CV can do it (easily), why not Panasonic and DVCProHD - same data rate? Same for Sony. The knowledge that the EX will work - does work - (even if not in full overcrank mode) with SLOW SD cards would inevitably lead to "errr, excuse me..." if anyone from Sony can out with the same statement now.

SxS and P2 may have advantages over cheaper memory, but they are no longer NECESSARY for broadcast video. That's why people are starting to mutter "the emperors got no clothes on!" when techo-babble is given as the reason why P2 cards are so dear. It explains why they are dear - not why they're necessary!

Tony7

15th November 2008, 11:07

pkbristol

15th November 2008, 11:33

Copied from dvinfo:

just came across the Transcend Express/34 SSD units.

Does anyone think these even have a chance of working?

http://www.mydigitaldiscount.com/SPD/transcend-32gb--mlc--express-card-34-solid-state-disk-ssd-transcend-ssd-32gb--mlc--express-card-34-solid-state-disk--80000449-1193346160.jsp

-Greg

If that works and the door closes on the EX1 ... wow.

No good tony, works only in SP mode in the EX1, and even then isn't reliable.
I've tried one myself in my EX1.
I can get them from my supplier for about £80 for 32gb,whereas 32gb of SDHC costs me £50. Price per gb, nothing beats the transcend SDHC at the moment.
My transcend SDHC cards have never let me or my colleagues down.
Stick with the tried and tested, kenny and tranny, or kenny and sandy.

Regarding the door closing, don't worry about it, it's no big deal.

Paul.