Panasonic AG-HMC151 Camcorder

[Richard Payne]

(Seriously Vested Interest Alert)
My Demo Panasonic AG-HMC151 camcorder has arrived, and as soon as the sun comes out I'll get out the door and shoot some stuff.
In the mean time if anyone wants any information about the camera please feel free to PM me or add to this thread.

As I work for the UK distributor of this camera I am obviously biased, but I will answer as as much as I can as an enthusiast rather than an employee.

[Alan Roberts]

And you'll have tried it one a zone plate, of course :D

[Richard Payne]

It's propped up in the kitchen as I write this!

[Steamage]

What, if anything, is the relationship between the AG-HMC151 and the HMC-150 that I have seen discussed recently on DVinfo.net?

TIA

[Richard Payne]

The 151 is the European version of the 150.

[Glen Cope]

Panasonic now put a number 1 for European models. So the HMV151 is for Europe, while the HMC150 is for USA/Japan. This new model/numbering system has been implemented to prevent grey-imports; which is a good thing. In the past, grey-importers were simply rubbing off the Europe letter (i.e. Sony Z1e or Z1u etc) from the base of the camcorder.

[schwimmwagen1]

Does the 151 do the NTSC frame rates as well as the PAL ones?

[Richard Payne]

Yes it does. However you cannot mix 50htz and 60htz on the same SD card.

[infocus]

Does it do vari-speed in the same way as the HPX170/200etc Richard? It generally seems to be referred to as the same front end as a HPX170, but with SD cards and AVC-HD instead of P2 and DVCProHD, but the Panasonic pdf doesn't make any mention of varispeed, just variable shutter times.

[Richard Payne]

No. The AG-HMC151 does not record Vari-speed. You can set 1080 24p, 1080 25p, 1080 30p, 720 50p, and 720 60p.

[infocus]

My Demo Panasonic AG-HMC151 camcorder has arrived, and as soon as the sun comes out I'll get out the door and shoot some stuff.
Out of interest, have you compared the difference between shooting in 1080i and 720p? I've been hearing reports that describe the "sweet spot" for the camera as the 720p mode at highest bitrate, that it (surprisingly) looks better than 1080i mode. The thinking is that it matches the front end quite well for resolution, yet taxes the compressor far less, and you're avoiding all the interlace issues.

[Richard Payne]

I like the look of the 1080 better personally. I find it sharper.

I have tried both.

[tom hardwick]

I had a happy play with Richard's 151 at the IOV show and we all marvelled at the image quality on the big plasma. 70 quid cheaper than the Z5 lurking not far away (which costs a lot more if you want the CF card reader / writer) , and as Richard points out - SD cards are not far short of a pound a gig now.

The 151 looks almost identical to the long-standing DVX100, but with a 13x zoom in place of the 10x and of course an obvious 16:9 hood up front. HD User's review wasn't too kind but there's a lot of folk who have loved the DVX for years and won't mourn the passing of MiniDV.

tom.

[Richard Payne]

Thanks Tom. Don't forget it also has a 28mm equivalent wide angle too.
Also if you Google it - the price is very reasonable compared to Z5.

[infocus]

70 quid cheaper than the Z5 lurking not far away (which costs a lot more if you want the CF card reader / writer) , and as Richard points out - SD cards are not far short of a pound a gig now.
I'm doing some research myself on "what camera" around that price point, and my quotes have indicated a bigger difference than that - more than £500?

Of the ones I've looked at, the sort of street prices I'm being quoted (all ex VAT) are around:

EX1 - £3,900
Z7 - £3,500 (incl 1 8GB CF card)
Z5 - £2,800 (with no CF recorder - about £500 more for the reader)
HVX171 - £2,600
HMC151 - £2,300 (well, £2,299, actually)

The EX1 is indisputedly the best, both in terms of technical quality and control ergonomics etc. I only ask why they couldn't have made it shouldermount for more easy handholding, but the same criticism applies to all the others. Hardly surprisingly, it's the most expensive.

The Z7 and the Z5 have USPs IMO of SD and tape compatibility, which may be deciding factors to some people alone.

I'm actually looking to go solid state, and need 720p/50 for specific reasons, as well as the ability to run for roughly two hours without downloading and formatting cards.

At this point, it's easy to see one very big attraction of the 151. The SD cards are about £20-25 for 16GB, enough for about an hour, so my 2 hours of continuous recording costs an extra £50 - about £2,350 for camera and memory.

Do the same sums for the 171, and the difference becomes ridiculous - you need 4 32GB cards at about £900 each. An extra £3,600, to bring the cost of camera and memory to £6,200.

Same sums for the EX1 and I make it about £5,000 if you use proper SxS, about £4,000 if you use SDHC with the adaptor.

My conclusions are that if you want the best in this category and need a reasonable amount of recording time, go with the EX, especially if you can use the SDHC cards. If £4,000 is just too much, the HMC151 is not much more than half that. As for the 171, I'm sure there must be some potential buyers who may want it as a B camera to bigger P2 cameras, but for the vast majority the EX is far better (and cheaper overall), and Panasonics own 151 is far cheaper, with the same basic picture quality. (Actually much better in 720p mode - it records a full 1280x720 raster.)

[Alan Roberts]

Out of interest, I've just completed testing the HPX171 for the BBC (I've also just tested the Canon HF10 and 5D, and build #17 of RED, and several more to come in the next week or so). Since it's the HDSDI version of the HMC151, I expect the same settings to work. But, publication must wait until the manufacturers have had a chance to see my report. So don't ask here.

And, while we're at it, it seems that my camera settings docs might soon be promoted to official EBU status, rather than just BBC. Not that I'll get paid any more :)

[infocus]

Since it's the HDSDI version of the HMC151, ......
Out of fairness to the 171, I think there are a few other differences, most notably it does varispeed, the 151 doesn't. I don't consider that justifies the extra cost - if varispeed was essential, I think the EX becomes a better buy.

And whilst the 151 doesn't have HDSDI, I believe it does have HDMI. That may be a more useful option for many. (Shame they couldn't have both.....)

[Daniel Browning]

I've also just tested the Canon 5D

Wow! Is that a pre-production 5D Mark II? I'm looking forward to your report.

[Alan Roberts]

Yes, I was over-simplifying in a hurry. The 171 does a lot of spot speeds, but not variable speed like the Varicam. These spot speeds are only available at 720p though. And, yes, the 151 does have HDMI, that's how I connected it in some private tests, but that brings about an interesting problem, because the licence for HDMI connection precludes professional/broadcast use. So, although I can easily convert HDMI to HDSDI, I can legally use it only for monitoring, not for programme feeds.

And I can't stop long now, because I've got a Z7 to test.

Yes, the 5D was pre-production. But, like I said, don't ask for comments yet.

[Mick Mearman]

Looking at all the specs for the HMC 151 it doesn't say anything about down converting to Standard Def only via the analogue connections is that right, if that's the case is the Sony Z1 better for me? as I want to video in HD for my own use but down convert for distribution and with my PC specs I don't think capturing in HD and down converting there is possible, I do like the idea of SD card acquisition though.
Mick

[Richard Payne]

Footage from the 151 seems to downconvert very well and software downconversion is usually preferable to using the camera downconvert through firewire.

[Mick Mearman]

In that case is software like Elecard AVC HD to DV transcoder any good and able to work with computers not up to HD spec but are up to DV spec? I suspect it would work better from the card reader or may there be issues there also?
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Encoders-Converter-DIVX-Related/Elecard-AVC-HD-to-DV-Transcoder.shtml
Mick

[infocus]

..........I want to video in HD for my own use but down convert for distribution and with my PC specs I don't think capturing in HD and down converting there is possible, ..........
I think the recommended workflow would therefore be :

Film in HD
Capture and edit in HD
Downconvert and output in SD (Still having an HD master)

With the 151, I think the recommendation would be to import, then transcode to an "edit friendly" codec, before editing. I'm afraid you may have to think about a new PC. If that's not an option, and you just want to keep an HD rushes archive, all editing being SD for now, you may want to consider the Z7 - record HDV on tape for archive, simultaneously record DV to Compact Flash for the "here and now" SD edit. The Z7 does have the benefit of a true manual lens, but is more expensive than the 151.
I do like the idea of SD card acquisition though.
In which you're far from alone....... :)

Also worth noting that recorded SD cards from the 151 can be put straight in to the SD slots on some Panasonic TVs, for very easy playback. A very useful feature for such as training I/Vs etc.

[Richard Payne]

In that case is software like Elecard AVC HD to DV transcoder any good and able to work with computers not up to HD spec but are up to DV spec? I suspect it would work better from the card reader or may there be issues there also?
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Encoders-Converter-DIVX-Related/Elecard-AVC-HD-to-DV-Transcoder.shtml
Mick


Are you wanting to Transcode to DV so Liquid can use the footage? If this is the case there is software that converts AVCHD to HDV as well. http://www.newbluefx.com/avchd-upshift.html

[Mick Mearman]

Are you wanting to Transcode to DV so Liquid can use the footage?
Yes Richard, I don't think my pc is up to HD
Mick

[PeterM]

Infocus mentions that "... recorded SD cards from the 151 can be put straight in to the SD slots on some Panasonic TVs, for very easy playback. A very useful feature for such as training I/Vs etc."

I've found that the same is true if the card is placed in the card reader slot in my Sony PS3.

[Mick Mearman]

I asked a dealer to put some footage on a SDHC card for me to see if I could read it and down convert it using the Elecard converter. I could read and convert it but when I played it in media player it seemed to be 4:3, then I put it on a Liquid 16:9 timeline and it had black bars either side, the clip properties say it's 4:3, playing direct from Liquid to a Panasonic 16:9 TV it plays somewhere between 4:3 and 14:9 if I force the TV to play it in 4:3 it's squashed but I can't force it to play in 16:9.
I think the dealer may have had side crop selected on the camera? because in the Elecard preview window before conversion the sides are cropped but not as much as 4:3.
I thought I need to see this in HD so I went to a friend who had a Panasonic with a SD slot but it won't read it, seems to only be able to read JPEG's
Can someone please advise me before I ask the dealer how he recorded it?
Mick

[Dave R Smith]

I thought I need to see this in HD so I went to a friend who had a Panasonic with a SD slot but it won't read it, seems to only be able to read JPEG's
Can someone please advise me before I ask the dealer how he recorded it?
Mick

Hi Mick,
Recently bought Panasonic TV.:)
Haven't used SD card reader as my stills camera is a different format.:(
Specs say it accepts JPEG files of DCF* and EXIF standards and of certain resolution range.
Mention of various SD card types/sizes as well.
No mention of other file types (e.g. video), though when I was searching to buy a TV, I think it was the USB input models that could handle stills camera or external hard drive with photo's and/or mpf files - again no mention of video files.

HTH

[Barry Hunter]

Mick, just a thought, in Liquid, go into the clips "Properties" select the video tab then choose scale both, I think. I`ve had one or two probs in the past where the footage had been shot in 16:9 & when edited in one PC & subsequently recorded to tape for use in another edit suite. Worth a try!

[Alan Roberts]

I have a SDHC card on loan from Richard Payne, with some of his 151 footage. It plays perfectly in my Panasonic plasma, as 16:9. It also imports correctly into Edius. So, if you have footage that looks like 4:3, it must have been generated as 4:3. Try again :)

[Mick Mearman]

I have a SDHC card on loan from Richard Payne, with some of his 151 footage. It plays perfectly in my Panasonic plasma, as 16:9. It also imports correctly into Edius. So, if you have footage that looks like 4:3, it must have been generated as 4:3. Try again :)
Thanks Alan I think it must be, in the specs for the camera it does say you can crop & squeeze for analogue output but it seems strange that it would record in HD on the card like that, why would you want to do that?
Mick

[infocus]

I have a SDHC card ...... It plays perfectly in my Panasonic plasma, as 16:9.
Yes, I've also played test 151 footage directly on a Panasonic plasma TV, and again, very easy, and a very nice feature. In my case, insert card, select "SD", then there's a choice between movie and still mode, select video, and thumbnails come up on screen, one for each shot. Plays straight off in 16:9, and since I think the 151 is HD only, presumably the recording must be in that aspect ratio.

It does get me wondering if it could play the same trick (direct playback on TV) with an SD card recorded via an adaptor in an EX? I suppose it depends if it recognises the folder structure.

[Mick Mearman]

I've just done a screen grab from the Elecard converter and that looks like 16:9 and yet the preview screen has black bars either side not as large as 4:3 in the middle of a 16:9 screen more like 14:9. Has anyone else used this converter? does it by default convert everything to 4:3?
I wish I could find a way to view the AVCHD footage then I would know.
Would anyone accept an email from me with this screen grab and give me their thoughts as to it's format please?
Mick

[Alan Roberts]

Mick, you have a PM.

[Mick Mearman]

Thanks Alan I've sent you a message
Mick

[Richard Payne]

The 151 is not capable of generating 4:3 files, but can do analogue 4:3 output. I would suggest that the software is not interpreting the footage correctly, perhaps it assumes it is 1440 X 1080 non square pixel, when in reality it is 1920 X 1080 square pixel.

[Mick Mearman]

Thanks Richard, Alan has viewed my frame grabs and says that the HD grab is how it should be, so you must be right, can you suggest an alternative converter other than Elecard which can convert AVCHD to SD avi that I could try? I would like to buy one of these cameras but at the moment I must be able to convert it to SD prior to editing, I know I could capture SD from the camera in analogue but that seems a step backwards to me.
Mick

[Richard Payne]

The Firecoder Blu from Canopus will do this very fast, but is probably overkill http://www.holdan.co.uk/grassvalley/firecoder_blu.htm
If Virtual Dub can use AVCHD this might provide a low cost solution. The downconversion is the tricky bit. Much easier if you shoot at 720p 50 because then the downconversion does not need to work with the interlace.
My fear is if you are converting the footage once, so it works with Liquid and then Once more to downconvert that you are jumping through rather too many hoops!

[Mick Mearman]

Since Alan confirmed to me that the footage was indeed 16:9 and for some reason was appearing (after conversion to SD) on the Liquid timeline squashed to 4:3 I have now tried Barry's suggestion and gone in to clip properties and changed the scale to 'Fit Both' and this works 'Fit X' also works, properties still reports it as being 4:3 I suppose the converter must be creating the wrong shape pixels.
The footage looks good on a Panasonic LCD apart from looking not interlaced on zooms and pans, although there again clip properties says it is interlaced?
Mick

[Richard Payne]

I have uploaded 4 clips that I filmed at the 1920 X 1080 setting on the AG-HMC151 camcorder in their original M2ts format.

bottom left of page http://www.holdan.co.uk/panasonic/AG-HMC151.htm

You can play them in EDIUS or Premiere CS4 or this free program http://www.videolan.org/ Download and use at your own risk.

When the sun comes out next I'll film some 720 50p stuff too.

[tom hardwick]

When the sun comes out next I'll film some 720 50p stuff too.

Don't think we can wait till April, Richard.

[Mick Mearman]

Thanks Richard, I tried them through the Elecard AVCHD to SD converter and it does it very well and copes with the interlacing ok except it comes out as before squashed into a 4:3 frame but taken into Liquid using 'fit X' puts it back to 16:9 don't know why it does this it must be an error in the converter?
Is the 3rd clip supposed to be a frozen pic with audio at the start? the one with a wide view of the train from the front, because on preview it is and converted twice it's the same?
Mick

[Richard Payne]

Hi Mick. Clip 00048 plays fine for me. There is sound all the way through. The error in the converter might be because it is expecting 1440x1080 1.3333 rather than the full 1920x1080 with square pixels I setting I used.

[Mick Mearman]

Yes I had sound all the way but a still picture for about 3 secs

[Richard Payne]

The Sun came out early Tom!

So now there are 4 new 720 50p clips up there too.
http://www.holdan.co.uk/panasonic/AG-HMC151.htm bottom left.