Pdw700 Bbc?

[steve phillipps]

Have you done your BBC settings yet Alan? Anything more you can tell us about your findings? I'm getting conflicting reports about how much better it is than the F355 picture-wise, with some saying it's marginal and others saying it's ain a different league. Hope to do some side-by-sides with my 750 shortly, wondering how it'll match up/compare. Any thoughts anyone?
Steve

[infocus]

I'm getting conflicting reports about how much better it is than the F355 picture-wise, ........... Any thoughts anyone?
Steve
Since it's full raster recording, and 4:2:2 as well, I don't see how it can be anything but a big step up from the F355, before we even start to think about the front end.

Since the last I saw the BBC were specifying that any interframe acquisition format had to be 50 Mbs or above, that would also seem to weigh very heavily in it's favour, whatever the quality is like ........ ;)

[SimonMW]

The quality, under scrutiny is a big difference. Although most wouldn't be able to tell if you were to put a programme in front of them.

The 700 will cope much better with more situations. It has extremely low noise, something that the 300 series suffers from. I whacked it up to 18db gain and it was still a pretty smooth picture. It is based around the same CCD block as the HDC-1500, which is in turn similar to the one used in the F23. So that should give an indication of how good it is. :)

The biggest difference apart from the 4:2:2 is that the 50Mbps recording rate is CBR not VBR like the 300 series.

I found it too good. Every single problem with the HJ17 lens I was using on it was laid bare!

[Alan Roberts]

I've tested the 700, it's good. BBC wouldn't pay to have it tested, so Sony arranged the test and have promised to pay me, but haven't done so yet :)

As far as I can tell, it ticks all the BBC's boxes. There's still some prejudice against a "moving parts" recording system that isn't tape, and I don't think they have any installed way of editing from the disks, so their workflow would be to import footage via HDSDI, which makes it exactly like tape, i.e. real-time. However, since it ticks all the performance boxes (and some), it's approved for use by indies and anyone who's doing the post outside the BBC's portals, for now. I expect this situation to change, but don't rely on it.

I've just checked the BBC Kingswood website, and it isn't up there yet, meaning that they haven't created the pdf from the doc I sent a few weeks ago. I know that BBC DV Solutions is happy with it, because they've approved it, as have Sony. Therefore, if anyone wants a copy, send me a PM (or an email with "PDW700" in the tile for anhyone who knows my email address, I'm not revealing it here), and I'll email out copies until it appears in the proper places.

Hope that helps.

[steve phillipps]

PM'd you Alan.
As far as editing goes, FCP is now ready for 4:2:2 XDCam. There was a hold-up I gather in that the XDCam transfer utility was not setup for it yet so getting the stuff into FCP was still not possible? I thin the Sony one (Edius is it?) is also capable now. If things are not quite ready yet I'm sure they will be very soon.
Steve

[Alan Roberts]

Vegas is Sony, so I'd expect it to have XDCAM. Edius is Canopus is GV/Thomson, and has had XDCAM for a while. You should have the settings doc by now :)

[steve phillipps]

Great, thanks.
I kind of look at HDCam from the likes of the Sony 750 as a bit of a benchmark for higrade TV work, and certainly clients I've supplied HDCam work to have always been blown away, so I'm keen to see how the PDW700 compares, as I know that if it looks about the same as the 750 then my clients will be happy. Then you'll have a camera cheaper than the 750, plus option of 720/50P, and a disc workflow (which I think works really well).
Will do some tests shortly and post my findings.
Steve

[SimonMW]

Not sure about Vegas as I don't use it as much these days. But import into FCP is all now at 100% functionality.

[Alan Roberts]

As far as I could tell, the front end is the same as the HDW790, considerably better than the 750 because of the 14-bit front. I couldn't confirm that because I couldn't get reliable files for noise analysis fcrom the Sony kit, but from the look of the pictures and waveform monitoring I'd be surprised if it's significantly worse than the F900R/790. But bear in mind that it seems to have the 600% overload range of the 750, rather than the 250% of the 900/790, so noise performance should be somewhere between the two, and certainly seemed to be so.

Good luck with it, contact me if you need help.

[infocus]

As far as I can tell, it ticks all the BBC's boxes. There's still some prejudice against a "moving parts" recording system that isn't tape, .........
But I seem to recall around the time of NAB, the announcement of an add-on SxS unit for the 700, similar to the Compact Flash unit that ships with the Z7? Would that be enough to tick the final BBC box?

And surely it's only a matter of time before an SxS only version?

The 700 would still remain the ideal freelancers camera - shoot SxS for somebody like the BBC (with their cards), and on to disc for other clients, or when in the back of beyond and downloading is less practical.

[Alan Roberts]

Looking at Sony's range, it seems to me that they regard disk as broadcast/professional and SxS as semi-pro/consumer, in the same way that Panasonic regard P2 and SD. Certainly, the cameras come from different factories, and I've seen, in the past, problems solved (or even created) in quite different ways on different cameras, indicating that there are totally separate design/production teams at work. It requires a bit of joined-up thinking to cross those divides, perhaps we're starting to see it happen.

[infocus]

Looking at Sony's range, it seems to me that they regard disk as broadcast/professional and SxS as semi-pro/consumer, ...........
The only things I'd be definate about is that they regard disk as professional, and Compact Flash as semi-pro (Z7), and maybe SD for the consumer range.

I think it's too early to say about SxS. It seems overkill for the EX as far as it goes - (why not just use Compact Flash?) - and my own hunch is that SxS has been developed for the pro end, the EX range being in the way of a test the water before bringing out the big cameras.

[Alan Roberts]

Probably right. All I was pointing out is that all the manufacturers seem to be trying to establish different media for different markets. I see no way of this situation ever becoming simpler, there will never be any standardisation now, it's too late. But I think that the selling point for SxS is that it's faster than CF.

[JGNattrass]

Formats are a funny thing but one thing is for sure after all the formats of the 80's and 90's two seem to have been the major ones in 1inch C format and Betacam (std,sp and digi)

They were both mainstream sony formats and even though a lot of major broadcasters used M2, D1,D2,D3,D5 etc they won the pro and semi pro market.

I think the same will happen with the disc format it is basically CD/DVD--blu-ray so it is cross platform, memory will be the other format and it doesnt matter what the final format is it is just memory chips in a high speed caddy. CF and SXS now but the pro cameras may have something different.

At the end of the day the independant sector will decide what is the mosy cost effective and convenient format for shooting and post, even then the shooting format may well be different from the delivery format, also with budgets being so low I think that there will be big changes in attitude as survival will be the main concern.

[Alan Roberts]

I can't see any prospect of capture and delivery formats converging again, because there's no need, since delivery is now to many outlets, not just to broadcast as in the 80s. So, I expect there to be divergence rather than convergence. The only thing that definitely will converge is the dependence on IT rather than video technology. This all makes sense once you realise that, once we' move away from linear video tape (analogue or digits, makes no difference), then we're already in IT and so may as well use IT technology. That's what's happening within the BBC already. Tape may still be involved, but as IT archiving rather than video tape.

That's my two pen'orth.

[JGNattrass]

I totally agree Alan I just hope that the IT depts become more broadcast minded, lets hope that we dont see a server with the contents of a broadcasters library on e-bay for £35:D

[SimonMW]

Certainly, the cameras come from different factories, and I've seen, in the past, problems solved (or even created) in quite different ways on different cameras, indicating that there are totally separate design/production teams at work. It requires a bit of joined-up thinking to cross those divides, perhaps we're starting to see it happen

Nope, one of the big surprises about the EX cameras is that they are designed and built by the professional division, not the consumer one. That's the main reason why the EX has a fully manual lens.

SxS is the professional solid state system for Sony, while the consumer cameras use SD (such as the Z7). Remember that the 700 has the option to record to SxS cards and to copy between the disc and the card.

[Alan Roberts]

I wasn't being specific about any camera or cameras, but about the range of cameras. I thought I'd made that clear. Many times, Sony people have told me of the problems they get for just this reason, the factories tend not to talk to each other.

[infocus]

Remember that the 700 has the option to record to SxS cards and to copy between the disc and the card.
Which to me is one of the most interesting things about the camera. I don't think Sony see SxS as the successor to XDCAM disc for many years - rather as complementary to it - use the hardware most suitable to your needs, either way it's the same data.

What we're waiting for is an SxS only version of the PDW700. That should be lighter, smaller, and use less power than a disc camera. For anyone with a "solid state or nothing" approach that then becomes the obvious choice, the PDW700 being the one for anyone with a "consumable media or nothing" approach. With a PDW700 plus SxS adaptor being available as a "sometimes one, sometimes another" solution.

That seems a far better solution than Panasonic and the P2 only attitude.

[SimonMW]

I don't think Sony see SxS as the successor to XDCAM disc for many years

Yes, they have said this when I have asked them. Although now I am not sure. The are CF developments to allow 100Mbps to be recorded from the SDI port of this, and the EX series of cameras now (and in once case uncompressed). And Sony have firmware enabled the U1 drive to be able to write pure data files to XDCAM disc so all SxS or CF data can be backed up to an XD disc easily. Something that couldn't be done before.

I think the XDCAM Data format has changed the possible outlook somewhat.

[infocus]

The are CF developments to allow 100Mbps to be recorded from the SDI port of this, and the EX series of cameras now (and in once case uncompressed).
Sorry Simon, do you mean by that Compact Flash developments to allow 100Mbs to be recorded from the SDI port of the PDW700?

[steve phillipps]

Presumably Simon is referring to the Flash XDR. They have demosntrated doing uncompressed to it as well, but the data rate is scary.
Steve

[SimonMW]

There is another device other than the Flash XDR. There is the much smaller and less expensive NanoFlash.
http://www.convergent-design.com/downloads/nanoFlash/nanoFlash%20Brochure.pdf

This one doesn't do uncompressed (because the Nanoflash only has two card slots so it cannot RAID four together like the XDR), but you can still use 160Mbps. What is quite cool is the way that it uses the RecRun timecode signal to automatically start recording when the record button is pressed on the camera.

It will also piggyback onto batteries on cameras like the 700.

Interestingly it records 160Mbps intraframe as well as LongGOP.

[Alan Roberts]

I think you're reinforcing my point that we're seeing an explosion of new formats (media and compression) that isn't going to solidify into a single standard or set of standards. As the solid state cards get cheaper, there will be ever less impetus on standardisation, because they won't be perceived as expensive items as they were a year or two ago. So we'll see lots of formats, some proprietary, each aimed at some niche market.

[SimonMW]

I think the current explosion for using cheap CF in the face of the manufacturers like Sony and Panasonic saying that they use SxS and P2 for reliability reasons means that there will have to be a shift at some point.

Nobody in their right mind for example would buy the SxS device for the 700 if the Nanoflash is available for a similar price or less and records to cheaper CF cards while gaining a huge quality advantage.

I think this coming year is going to be even more interesting than last!

[infocus]

Nobody in their right mind for example would buy the SxS device for the 700 if the Nanoflash is available for a similar price or less and records to cheaper CF cards while gaining a huge quality advantage.
Whether or not I'm in my right mind I'll let others judge (:)), but one reason to buy it (for a sane person.....) would be if Sony do bring out an SxS version of the PDW700, and that starts to get taken up widely, alongside disc based versions.

For a freelance, an SxS adaptor then means the same camera is equally suitable for working with clients who have either variant. For larger companies, they may have a mix of disc and SxS only cameras - the adaptor means a disc PDW700 can pretend to be an SxS camera. It also depends how big your pockets are - for a broadcaster, download speed may be more important than absolute cost, and 50Mbs may be seen as more than good enough - whilst giving a good run time on each card cf 100Mbs.

I'd much rather have the solid state recorder integrated into the camera - no hanging boxes or cables, and the advent of things like the XDR may well hasten Sonys plans.

SxS does at least integrate very well with modern laptops, one point in it's favour over P2 now.

[Alan Roberts]

One of the nice features promised for the 700 is a video input (HDSDI), so that it can record from other sources. Nice, or what?

[SimonMW]

Yes, the HD-SDI in is a good feature. Although i think it is an optional extra. It was fitted on the pre-production model I tried out though.

[Alan Roberts]

From many years of testing prototype and pre-production kit, I'm well used to the notion that the finished model may well have more or fewer features. Things can often change in the final few weeks before delivery, and development often carries on well into the production phase, even more so now that most processing is done in programmable hardware.