Bought my last copy of CV

[Ned Nurk]

Hey All,

Just wanted to say that I shall no longer be buying CV... the increase in price just makes it pretty expensive for very little.

So much editorial space is wasted... transcripts of the bulletin boards. Hey, if you want to make them available to non net people, introduce a fax back service. But 5 pages of stuff that is available elsewhere.. no thanks

The buyers guide/contact lists/glossary take up way too much space. They hardly change, either and go into too much detail (like why bother listing speakers costing £41?)

So 1/4 to a 1/3 of the editorial space is wasted.

Reviews mainly are too light on informative text and too heavy on product images.. Look at that JVC camcorder review for example.. more picture than text.

Articles about production teams etc are generally good and interesting.

Quite why you would want to span a tutorial on a product over 6 months is way beyond my comprehension though. Maybe run special technique tutorials on little known areas/features of the software that you can get into one issue, but doing a general tutorial over the time is silly, people are not going to wait until next month to find something out, they tend to need it right now.

Anyway, that's my 2/c (Euro cents) worth...

And I generally agree with Tony Bolton's comments...

Regards
Ned.

[John Crombie]

I must admit I feel the same way. I like the idea of the magazine but feel it has lost direction somewhat. I would like to see more editorials on editing techniques and styles. A few months ago there was an article on using the DC30+ to produce a music video demo for a girl duo going by the name Jucy. I found the article very interesting but wanted to know more about what was being talked about and how it was achieved. I wanted to see photographs of the timeline for each effect. I wanted to see both the final video and the raw video before it was edited so I couuld see what the editor had to work with. (Also if we had the RAW video we could try editing it ourselves to try and obtain a similar final result.) The article left me wanting more and there was certainly scope to give it. There have been many such articles in the past but they seem to have mostly dried up. For those of us attempting to improve our technique or get a technique in the first place the current CV is extremely lacking.

For myself, I will browse the magazine in the shop and buy it if anything in it seems of interest. At the moment I feel I have read most of the magazine by reading this board.

[bcrabtree]

Ned/John,

I've noted what you've said - and find there are a good many things with which I agree (and which, as a magazine, we will address).

I will respond fully but want to leave it a day or two so that other people can comment without being influenced by anything I might say.

Cheers

Bob C

[tez]

Hi

just wanted to give my newbie viewpoint to this here debate. To some extent I agree with some of the comments but for myself I am still finding the mag a good source of info/data and apart from the web this is the only source for such info I know about.

However .....improvements,mmmmmmm!

Yes ,I agree that there is some material that hardly alters between issues..the beginers section at the beginning, listings at the end.These are useful sometimes but if adding other features means adding more pages and upping the price again I think some thought should be given to reducing or removing these sections.

Things I would like to see:
1. A beginners(and I do mean beginners) guide /tutorials to the basics such as capturing video, editing , rendering and saving/storing.

I am newish to win 98 and to video editing and the following are some of the things I have either found answers to,want answers to or have found answers but don't understand them and are the sort of things that could be included in a beginners guide.
1.)What is the best way to capture video using the options available( to me thses are matrox pcvcr,via avid or maybe using the aviio prog I have been hearing about am sure I would need a lot more knowledge to use.)

2.)What affect changing compression rates has on capture speed, hard disk usage, quality, how to change these rates and how they are associated with the different codecs,capture options.

3.)Where to look on my system for the version of video drivers , video tools , matrox bios(what is a matrox bios?) that I have . When should I think about upgrtading these , how do I do it, do I need to remove old drivers or is this done automatically etc

As you can see, for me these questions go on and on....and are only the tip of the iceberg. I know different people who might all be new to NLE will all come to it with different knowledge bases because of past experience but I am sure they would not mind plowing through such a series to extract the bits pertinent to them.I certainly wouldn't.

Anyway hope this contributes something positive to the debate.

Regards

Tez



[This message has been edited by tez (edited 30-04-99).]

[bcrabtree]

As an interim measure, folk might like to read my response to the query in Forum 1, entitled, "Price increase "

Bob C

[Charles]

I agree with most of what tez said and add some more comments you don't need the buyers guide untill you want to buy something then you will have a look i do agree that it is badly in need of updateing and on a regular basis,as also mentioned pictures of the jvc camera if i want info on a camera i have a choice of two sister magazine, as has been said its in the title of the mag, you are buying this mag because you have your footage you just want to find out how you can do something with it or find out what you need to do something with it.Every mag you buy has a certain amount of "padding" in it a lot of which has to be there for "New" readers.There is a need for as someone has already said a step by step guide with the different editing packages as with the medis studio tutorial you need 6 or 7 issues laid out in front of you any tutorial needs to be contained in one issue. What can you get for £3.55 these days not a lot, but i do think the subscription could have offered a better saveing.One last point what other mag covering any hobby gives the readers a chance to shape the future of the mag and a online feature as well.

[Shaun Tregear]

I must say that when I first started reading this magazine about 8 months ago I found that it was an essential and valuable resource. I already had experience in linear and non linear editing but was about to purchase my own system. It helped me make an informed decision about the computer, and editing hardware that I was about to purchase.
I do agree though that the number of pages dedicated to the web forums is quite excessive and could definately be better utilised. The product listings I rarely look at now, but when I was purchasing equipment gave me a lot of useful information. There will always be people who will find this resource very helpful, just as I did when buying my system.
I would as others have mentioned like to see more in depth articles about editing techniques and theories. Non Linear editing has made video editing accesable for a large number of people, most of whom will have little understanding of the 'classic formulas of cinematic construction'. I would like to see more articles about helping editors acheive more proffesional results in their productions.
The magazine has a readership with greatly differing skill levels and I can appreciate the difficulty of catering to all readers. However I would like to see articles that cater to the more advanced techniques of editing and compositing.

Keep up the good work!


[This message has been edited by Shaun Tregear (edited 03-05-99).]

[Ned Nurk]

Hi all, me again.

Been putting a bit of thought into this the past week.

So firstly, a question. Is the magazine about making films with the aid of computers or is it solely about the video/computer interface?

I would definitly prefer the first one. This allows almost anything into the mag.. becoming a more interesting version of 'video camera'.

OK, so we need to save editorial space. The glossary probably needs to stay. Web help? Produce fax versions and dedicate a page to operating instruction on faxback and the topics available.

The buyers guide needs to be really improved too. A single line on stuff is not really very helpfull. So expand it by 300% and move it into the faxback section. Every month print 1 important section in the mag, cameras or recorders or capture boards. Rotate this on a month by month basis. Stuff like speakers and plugins are pretty lame, that stuff can be found in any catalogue, keep just on faxback.

Cool. That's probably saved 16 pages. Now let's fill it.

Of course Bob, you are massively overworked, so get the readers to do most of the work. In photography magazines, they get a load of products in and dish them out to the readers to review for a comparative review section. Just bung their text in and create a grid/summary at the end. Bang goes at least 5 pages :)

Products I want to see comparative tests on for a start:
SteadiCams
Tripods (£100 - £1000, possibly 2 features?)
Low end Cranes/Jibs
Low end Dolly tracks/trolleys
Cameras of course :)
Wide angle/tele adapters
Wireless microphones
Normal mics
Cases
etc etc ad nausem...

Lets have some in depth articles as well on peripheral topics:
DV Head wear (get all the manufacturers together in one room and bash their heads together until you get an answer)
Insurance (types/costs/ suppliers. That wankey company that advertises in your magazine didn't send me the brochure I requested.. typical british service)
Film Festivals
Getting your stuff 'out there' to tv stations/cable etc..
Interviews with people making indie films with NLE

ah, what else?
Book review section (I can recommend a bunch)

A nice big comparative review on capture cards. One on trad analogue, one on DV.

Technique section. Focus on a shooting/editing technique (say, L-Cutting, titles or whatever). Explain concepts, then give step-by-step help on how to do it in the popular video editing packages. As I said before there is no point trying to cover everything about a package over 6 months. Other than a 'get you started' article, then everything should be tackled like this.

Bung a CD on the front including stock clips from readers, files from the technique section, or like recorded sound from microphone tests, stock music, demo apps etc.


Anyway, hope that helps
Ned.

[Ned Nurk]

Thought of some more things I want to see..

Comparative reviews of:

MPEG 1/ MPEG 2 hardware/software encoders
CD Creation software (from the VCD point of view)
Storyboarding / Scriptwriting / shotlogging software
Battery belts / batteries / chargers
Video lights
Audio boxes (i.e. XLR converters, portable dat and minidisc)
Clapperboards :)

Come on people.. add more to this list....

Regards
Ned

[bcrabtree]

Ned,

I've *never* bought a copy of Computer Video but LIKE YOU, I've got a lot of good ideas about what needs to be done to improve things.

And, of course, a lot of them co-incide with what you and other folk are saying.

Thanks for the different batches of very constructive comments.

All I need to do now is hire the two missing staff members and try to implement some of these things.

Oh, and get the June issue of CV finished on my own and try to get my part of the office in some semblance of order, following today's office musical chairs, which occupied the full day, and will take up most of tomorrow, too.

And we are only running a week late already.
:-(

Cheers

Bob C

[oburri]

Hi,
I must admit that I'm really surprised by the reactions and especially the tone of some of them after the *small*price increase
announcement.
People who complain for a 40p increase are the first to run by Smiths to shell out their hard-earned quids on british-censorship proof magazines like "loaded".
If CV is far from perfect, like many serious magazines, it's the only european magazine aimed at the prosumer digital video market.
Their Web presence is really enjoyable, especially for a swiss guy who can grab a copy of the mag only when he travels to London...
Think Positive! http://www.safety-online-internet.com/host/computervideo/ubb/wink.gif




------------------
Oliver G. Burri
-=sic transit
gloria mundi=-

[bcrabtree]

Thanks for the comments but the increase is actually 70p, not 40p.

Cheers

Bob C

[oburri]

You're right, Bobby! But does 30p. really makes a difference, except if you are scottish...

Keep up the good work!! : )


------------------
Oliver G. Burri
-=sic transit
gloria mundi=-

[John Crombie]

I have been careful not to complain about the price increase even though looking at my messages I may seem to be complaining.

I will pay £3.55 or more for a magazine providing it looks like reasonable value for money (VFM) to me. I think everyone here is the same. For the amount of editorial content in C&V at the moment, a number of us doubt that it does and with the increase in price in June, the VFM gets worse.

I want the magazine to succeed. There is a market out there for it. The problem is that it is a niche market and the circulation figures are low. If you increase the cover price the chances are the circulation figures will drop. With smaller circulation figures it becomes more difficult to attract advertisers and the cost of producing the magazine increases. You are in a vicious circle. Without the money you can imploy the writers, without the writers you have to include cheap to produce material such as discussion topics from this web board.

You have to increase the VFM or widen the magazines appeal to increase the circulation and break out of this circle. The people responding to this thread and others are trying to make suggestions to help Bob do this.

[ipac]

Gentlemen,

I have been reading this debate with interest. I have looked objectivly at both sides and here is the basic argument.


side 1

Bob is basicaly part of a two man show that produces an internationaly available magazine every month. He gives up all of his free time and puts in a tremendous amount of effort on our behalf. I have a vision of bob, he looks like an extra from "night of the living dead".
He has asked for a 70 pence increase in price for the mag. This price increase still keeps it cheaper than about 80% of the other mags you can buy. Why has he done this - to higher new staff and make the improvemnts that WE are asking for.


Side 2

We the readers want more reviews, technical info, and a better support and for the most part without paying for it (hey look a flying pig). Don't get me wrong, I hate the padding just as much as you do. Some exellent ideas have been put forward here, and I am certain Bob would love to implement every single one of them, but he already works on the mag 23 hours a day ( I gave you 1 hour for sleep Bob, is that ok or way too much).


Solution

well basically - Lets help!!!

Now I know there are hundreds (maybe thousands) of profesional, semi pro, amateur and complete novices out there. Thats alot of knowlege, this bulletin board is proof of that.

Bob, If you are willing, let us help you.

I am sure Bob gets software and hardware and all the other little bits and bobs that we would kill for to get our hands on, to review for the mag. (lucky or what).

Well Bob I stand here, raise my hand and whole heartedly say - Bob, can I play too.

For free (note that, FREE), If you send me something to review for the mag, no matter what it is, I will review it for you.

I have even thought of the name for the section in magazine READERS REVIEWS (I'm sure Bob will improve that, thats why he is the editor, but hey, i'm trying)

Some of you out there already own the equipment that others wish to have reviewed. Write about it, share your wisdom, whats good, whats bad, can an idiot use it or do you need a degree in astro physics.

I think this should be voluntery, At least until the mag realy takes off.

I don't know how the review stuff works Bob, do you have to sent it back to the supplier, or is it just discarded. Could the reviewer be allowed to purchase it cheap??

If manufacturers agree to it, put beta software on the web site so be can download it and have a play. The software manufactures will certainly get better more varied feedback. Who knows we may get rid of some of those awfull bugs in the software along the way.


Well I will now shut up, place my blindfold over the eyes, face the firing squad and ask -

What does everyone think ????

[Charles]

Best idea yet.Why didn't Bob think of it?

------------------

[Ken W]

to Ipac
For what it's worth here's my two-penneth.

While the idea in your posting above has certain merits (Bob gets editorial), I see potential problems.

Talking amongst ourselves on this bulletin board and calling crap crap is one thing - But puttin' it into print is another matter.
When Bob (hopefully) builds the circulation, then goes to the manufacturers for more ad revenue, they are *not* going to be best pleased to see editorial from readers telling them a few home truths about the junk they're pushing out.

As *most* of the video related products (hardware & software) are problematic, any reviewer has to choose his words carefully. For "troublesome installation" read "wrecked my system", for "problematic functionality" read "unworkable junk", for "low value for money" read "the worst piece of crap I've ever shelled out on" etc.

Any review comes from the standpoint of the reviewer. Andy Jarrod (from this board) works with computers, it took him, with all his experience, a whole day to fathom a Miro DV300. He now probably thinks its wonderful (and to him it probably is), but what about the poor b*****d who doesn't know his 9,10,11.&12 irq's from his 1,2,3 or 4 coms. In a Miro DV300 review by Andy would he slant it from his perfectly legitimate viewpoint and say "after initial setup hickups this product is the d*** *******s? Or would he slant towards the novice and say "The plug and play on this device is worse than useless, unless you've got at least five years experience of win95 - and it's only been out 4 - you'll never get it working properly, save yourself the heartache and launch it from a high window now"?

While plug & hope continues to be a sick and expensive joke for the inexperienced nothing will change very much. We should attempt to read "between the lines" of the professional reviewer for a hint of the truth (Alan Soloman comes close to tellin' it like it is) and continue to call crap crap on this bulletin board. I believe the *best* way we can support Bob is by paying the extra dosh he needs for improvements and leave the reviewing to the pro's. That's not to say the occasional well written article from a reader shouldn't be edited and used.

There are always things in life that are better value for money - but equally - some things are worth supporting for a while.

(PS Get the cheque in the post on Monday Bob)
Ken W

[ipac]

you are missing the point slightly. If you know very little or nothing about the insides of a computer, keep away from reviewing it. Review a tripod.

I suppose I consider myself to be very good at getting hardware to run smoothly, I tend to do it for a living, even on systems more complex than a pc. But I do not claim to be an expert when it comes to using a video camara. I consider myself an amature in this area. Therefore I would leave a review like that to someone who is an expert. If jarroda had such a problem, write a small artical about it, what was wrong?, how did he eventually fix it? Novices (and some experts alike) need this kind of information to progress, or they stay novices forever. Most system malfunctions that most people suffer are from ignorance and the lack of knowledge to go about fixing things themselfs.

The mag should not be an area to "slag of" a companies product, but hey, if you have a major problem setting something up put it in the review, give reason why. Don't just sit there shouting CRAP, CRAP, CRAP.

I am also certain Bob would not let something like that to be published. The point is to give a good, impartial review.

Besides, if a company notices that they are getting slated at every turn and losing sales, they will get the message and do something about it. Better for them, Better for us.

[Ken W]

Ipac
You did ask for feedback.
Sorry If I annoyed you somewhat with my response.I assure you it was meant constructively not critically, we're on the same side. My bad syntax may have purveyed the wrong signals. I'm not a professional writer (or reviewer).

I post messages on this board - help when I can - and ask when I'm in trouble. I assure you I don't sit here shouting CRAP CRAP CRAP, that was a figure of speech - it's what we tend to do on this board to let off steam when the crap won't work.

I don't think I've missed the point. For now - until you convince me otherwise - I'll stick to my guns and say reviews are best done professionally.

A couple of examples of too many to list.

You are a fully skilled IT technician, your strengths are getting troublesome systems running. As such, a review by yourself - however well intentioned -will come from the standpoint of experience. Lets, for the moment take product *x*. The usual stuff is on the box, "easy P & P hardware installation, just need a screwdriver" "troublefree software setup, self configuring etc". Lets say "you" run a review on product *x* and apart from an irq conflict (which you quickly solve by re-allocation) The installation goes smoothly and the product works fine. You correctly report all of this in your review. Armed with your (reasonably) positive review and seduced by the glamourous flash on the box Joe punter buys himself product *x*, and a screwdriver .

Unless his PC is the same make & same model as yours (even they can change) he could be in big trouble.
His Pc will certainly be a completely different (configured) animal Now we have a scenario where your review is clouding the issue as he tries to follow your experiences, when in fact he has "different" configuration problems .

Your review would probably be of benefit to the more experienced PC user/builder (but if he's experienced does he need help?)

You are bang-on when you say novices will stay novices unless they get some help. However (unless they are very lucky) I cannot believe letting them inside a working Pc with a screwdriver to configure the current crop of NLE equipment is good practice. It is potentially disastrous.
To do this sort of work I believe they MUST start from the ground up in their understanding of building and configuring Pc's.
This IS an area where readers' input could be of great help. The magazine is called *Computer* video, so why not? Most of this sort of "beginners series" in PC magazines is still above the heads of novices.

The Pinnacle Studio 400 is a product that could easily be returned under the trades description act. It (in my opinion) is not fit for the purpose for which it is sold. It clearly states it will work with any combination of vcr's etc.

If someone reviewed it, (and got lucky with setup) they could be doing Pinnacle a big favour regarding sales, while the reality is - someone from Pinnacle should be jailed (again my opinion). If you tried this bomb with several different configurations I believe more than half would fail. I've just read about a studio 400 user who, after weeks of heartache still couldn't get it to work , upon phoning the Pinnacle help line he was advised to buy a Miro DC10+ ?? The mind boggles.

Do you *still* want to review these products?

This is the *primary* reason I mantain reviews should be done *professionally* under controlled conditions in differing scenarios. The amateur - no matter how well intentioned -cannot achieve this and could cloud the issue.

quote - Alan Soloman from a message a few days ago.
" I have a theory about why we get sold things that don't work. My theory is that the management of the companies genuinely are unaware that they don't work, and assume that they do, because they've seen it working in one system, and they think all systems are the same as the one they tried it in. The MP10 software crashed a few times as I was using it, and I had to reboot at one time to get it working. But it'll be a long time before anything beats the installation of Vitec MPEG editor, wiping out my windows directory and forcing me to completely re-install Windows on a computer.
------------------ I got the Queens Award for Technology for my software"

quote your good self.
"Besides, if a company notices that they are getting slated at every turn and losing sales, they will get the message and do something about it. Better for them, Better for us."

Oh Yeah! - Do something about it? - Will they?
Do you *know* a magazine in *any* field that regularly slates it's manufacturers (and rightly so) which is still in business?

I *never* suggested your ideas lacked merit, they are clearly constructive, I just suggested I saw potential dangers - and still do. My reservations relate to hardware devices and installation. Software reviews etc are a different thing.
Please Please do a review of Prem 5.1 and tell me why I'm losing sync with my DC30+ . But on your machine you probably wouldn't get it.

Lets agree to differ slightly on this one, while fighting on the same side in the larger war.
Regards
Ken

[Ken W]

PS
Apologies for late-nite typo. In the above for "purveyed" read "conveyed"
Ken

[ipac]

Hey I was not upset at your reply, I was glad somwone did, in a very constructive manner.

But I would like to point out that I am not a skilled IT proffesional. Just a mere mechanichal test and development engineer. Everything I know about computers is self taught. I was that novice guy swinging a screwdriver blindly inside a pc. Now our so called IT experts at work will come to see me if they cannot solve something. My computer involvement now relates to computerising tests and logging data.

The other point is the proffesional reviewer. What is a proffesional reviewer?

I think I remember you saying Dr Alan Soloman was a good reviewer, How did he become good?
I am certain he will slap me (hard) if I am wrong here, but isn't he a software engineer. Where did he do his training as a reviewer. Now I also think he is good, because he if honest and objective. If a product has a problem he says so!!

Also remember, reviewers don't have the same hardware as you. I have also seen praising reviews of products I thought was junk. And the thing with Pinnacle, God I would have loved to have seen that quoted in a review. I won't buy one now.

The reason I posted was to try get some constructive ideas put forward, you have helped point out some of the pitfalls, glad you did.

P.S. being an engineer, we are renound for our lack of english skills, so don't worry, drunk you could probably write better than I could.

P.P.S. Bob, what is your view, if you think its a no go, say so, we can then move on if necessary.

[ipac]

sorry forgot this one.

Thats why I suggested calling it Readers Reviews. It lets you know it's not proffesional.

Sorry for going on and on.

[Ken W]

Ipac
I sense a slight coming together of minds here (maybe a Vulcan mind merge?)
Whatever Bob's opinion - with your permission lets debate a little more.

Fact (gov statistics)
nine out of ten *new* businesses, large or small, fold in the first three years. I'll subscribe to that - been there - done it - got the T-shirt. We survived and joined that band of 1 in 10 by a combination of working long hours for nowt, management that couldn't afford a single mistake, some help from the right quarters and a large chunk of luck. The last of the list probably being the most important - and the one you have the least control over.

The magazine is possibly in the midst of that cycle, and could go on to greatness and riches, or fall by the wayside to be gobbled up and merged. I for one prefer the former so lets try to agree that Bob needs the extra subscription dosh. He also needs all constructive help.This magazine - warts an' all - is still all we've got in *this* country on *this* subject. He also needs a large slice of luck!

There is already a forum for "readers' reviews", It's this bulletin board. There's nothing to stop any of us posting our experiences here, *and* it would probably find it's way into print via the "padding" that Bob stands accused of.
I personally don't subscribe to the padding theory. There is a large percentage of computer users (anyone got stats?) not yet internet wired and with other more pressing things to do with the spondula's. they have no access to this rich source of info other than the mag pages. But I think it's the quantity (5 or 7 pages) that some brethren are unhappy with.

So why not a few modifications along the lines you cleverly suggested. First off keep a couple of pages of the very best of the bulletin board. Next off - A new bulletin board subject - Hints & tips! - supplied by the readership. Bob could lift and print this. Third off - A "readers' amateur review" section - with a header that *clearly* states the section is amateurs' experiences only and NOT official mag sanctioned, not neccessarily the opinion of the mag and provided for entertainment/education only etc.
I think (5 to 7) pages (or more) based on this format would be less easily *classified* as padding.
Opinions please ipac - or anyone?

By the way, don't put yourself down, your a hands on man (like me), and sounds to me like someone pretty damn useful and important to your company.

A couple of thoughts to get the "hints & tips" going.

Tip:
the biggest offender amongst computer components regarding problems is the power supply. They are switching devices and notoriously flakey, especially in a dusty/smokey enviroment. If you have general obscure intermittent problem following no logical path, start with the power supply don't end with it, you may save yourself several hours.
Go to a local computer fair (they're all over now) and buy a spare for about a tenner. Lengthen all the power leads so it can sit outside your Pc case and still reach the motherboard, hard drive, floppy, cd etc. Connect it up to replace the onboard one and run tests. There are two types of power supply in general use. The AT and the newer ATX. On the AT the leads that go onto the motherboard are all in one row with all the BLACK leads together in the centre. Make sure you connect up your supplementary power supply in the same way. Putting the Black leads to the outside (which is possible) will blow your board. The ATX connector to the motherboard is one solid block of two rows of cable and only fits one way.

Tip
Plug & Play golden rule. Fit a non-plugger first.
If you have a plug and play device that won't plug. Go to device manager and remove ALL references to ALL plug and play devices (using the remove button). Now turn off the system and remove the mains lead - earth yourself and remove all the devices physically from the system. Now refit the offending non-plugger first and power up the system. Hopefully It should now behave itself. Then refit (one by one checking for conflicts) all the other devices (dont forget to power down the system and remove the mains lead as you refit EACH device).

Goin' away for a while so can't respond quickly.
Regards
Ken

[bcrabtree]

There is a large number of utterly splendid ideas in some of the these postings. I'm holding my fire, largely, until more folk chime in, but I have to say I do very much like the idea of setting up a Readers' Reviews forum.

Thanks for all the comments to date - some of which are deeply flattering and highly offensive all at the same time!

"Night of the Living Dead", indeed!

;)

Cheers

Bob (ghoul) Crabtree

[ipac]

Ken w

Best ideas yet, it is sort of thing I hoping to draw out of people, I just wanted to get the ball rolling. I would like to see the additions to the bulletin board.

I would also like to see the mag continue and prosper, this would be a definate step forward. And with the extra cash from from the minor price increase, I think things are going to start to happen.

Come on the rest of you, what do you want to see happen in YOUR magazine. It is your chance to get some of the changes you want.

[Gladders]

Some good ideas. Back to the subject of magazine price, compared to the cost of the equipment being used in this little pre-occupation, even the new price is modest. A review could save wasting hundreds of pounds on the wrong kit. And I'm sure there aren't any smokers out there, but that little hobby costs as much per day as CV does per month.

As to subject matter, I would be interested in an article on the real fundimentals of video. When light reaches the CCD I assume an analogue voltage is created, how is the relevant information about colour etc obtained? Is this from the frequency of the wave? Presumably it is then sampled and a pcm signal results. There must be big differences between 1CCD and 3CCD cameras.

I have found articles about the comparisons between NTSC and PAL DV compression, but never anything explaining the process before that. I may well have it all wrong, but thats why I would like an article.

Who's next? Anything else anyone would like to see?

[Chad]

Wow!

I must say I'm shocked, it seems to me like there's a bit of a civil uprising going on here. Which is great, and from what Bob has said he's real glad of the feedback.

Anyway to the point, I like to say a bit about the "Reader's Reviews" issue. In theory top idea, in practice... well I guess it could go one way or the other. As a student (opened mtself up to insults there!) I have help out on two student magazines, one of which I was helping setup an office for a new campus to contribute, so I feel I have a bit of an idea on this one. Firstly when it works it really works, sometimes non-pros can come up with some amazing stuff, they look at everything with different eyes. Most people will be very political (I guess through fear of being disliked) and have a better idea of what people want to here, so yes it's a great idea.

However this is my second point, when it doesn't work what you get is something people use to line their cat's litter tray (an actual use someone once suggested for one of my reviews). What follows are the porblems I've experienced :

1. Deadline is a concept you only understand when you've got something to lose (e.g. job!).
2. To suppliers deadline means everything!
3. People WILL get offended when their article is dropped, the term be professional about it loses meaning, and the other alternative is sexiest!
4. People like to steal, sorry "They thought they got to keep that!" even though they never reviewed it.
5. Most of us really do suck as writers, if not we'd all work for magazines.
6. My final point, people always get bored (eventually).

My word I do know how to rant on so I'll quickly list my other thoughts :

1. 70p a month is 17.5p per week, which is 2.5p a day, so I suggest we all put 3p to one side every day and then put the change a charity box and give ourselves a pat on the back.
3. FILLERS MUST STAY! They are what new users call life saving info.
4. The buyers guide is in need of a major face lift and a bit of liposuction!
5. Anything that is put into a fax-back should also be put on this website, if this isn't possible that it shouldn't be done at all!
6. Articles on method (as mentioned above I think) would be a great idea.

I'm going to stop now as net time doesn't come free, but I will say one last thing and that is that this still remains a great magazine, one of the best I feel, so I for one will remain patient and continue to purchase every month (you never know I might subscribe if I win the lottery - not a jap at the price but at my cash flow situation!)

I really will stop now,

Chad!

[Peter Tomkies]

I've just read (most of) the above responses in a single sitting so my reply could refer to any of the above comments.

What should the magazine be about? It's called Computer Video so it should be about working on video with a computer. To me that means not reviewing camcorders, microphones and tripods - as has been said there are already magazines for that. Likewise reviewing PCs is a no-no unlesss it's a particular set-up relevant to DV. Stick to DV editing cards, Av hard disks and associated DV peripherals and software.

Readers Reviews - writing usable magazine copy is not easy and we could end up making a lot more work for the editorial staff by sending in our scribbles. Having said that one of my favourite film making magazines of time gone by (Amazing Cinema - a US magazine that only lasted 4 issues!) was targetted at the kind of amateur/semi-professional cross-over market that I think CV should aim for. It (Amazing Cinema) would publish articles written by people making super 8 mini-epics in their own back yard alongside production diaries from the major studios. I would be very interested to read articles by DV users describing projects they have undertaken and the techinques and programs they used to achieve their aims. I also agree with whoever suggested screen grabs of timelines etc to illustrate this type of how-to/how I did it article. The article about making the music video for the band was exactly what I want I read and I'm sure a good few of the people who win Camcorder Users annual competition must edit on computer. (A few years ago there was a school that won two awards with short films full of special effects - an article from people like them disecting their films and techniques so we can all see how it's done would be great).

I know that the above paragraph may mean lots of sifting for Bob (which I criticised at the beginning!)but if the articles are usable then it does save editorial time elsewhere (i.e.: Bob doesn't have to write everything!).

I disagree with a lot of the comments about tutorials. I think they are a good idea and HAVE to be split over several issues in the main. Firstly as a marketing point, people will buy the next issue to follow the next lesson. Secondly, while specific techniques can be covered in one (say) four page article, a beginner's guide to something like Premiere (which is useful as there is always something new that can be learned) would need an issue all of it's own and if that's what you want then buy a Classroom in a Book title. Even if you don't own a particular program a tutorial can make you aware of what can be done - I for one would love to know more about Adobe After Effects and a series of tutorials would be a good way of doing this. Perhaps these type of articles could be freelanced by organisations such as Swan Rose training or DVC in Hove/Brighton. I don't know if Bob likes letting go of his baby but if he can start bringing in contributions from outsiders then it's all a bit less strain for him personally.

I think that most technique articles should try to be platfrom non-specific. Premiere and Media Studio have by and large the same functionality even if they give the features different names to avoid copyright infringement so it should be possible to write articles that apply irrespective of your chosen editing program. Camcorder User's digital video supplement section has run a cracking series of tutorials on subjects like morphing or putting dinosaurs in your high street - that's what I want to see! Software reviews of 3D programs like Lightwave could all link into tutorials.

The web page extracts are a bit of a space filler and should be cut down but I think that Bob wants that anyway. However I don't read all the posts, dislike reading off-screen at the best of times and we shouldn't disenfranchise non-web users so I think there is a (small) place for extracts from the message board as a monthly FAQ section.

It's very late so I apologise if my typing has gone awry but hope these comments keep the debate ongoing.

[Peter Tomkies]

Oh yes, and sack the Buyers Guide section or rename it "How much were we paying last year?"

And don't start a cover CD. One, if I want to practice a technique I can use my own footage and don't need any of yours using up my hard disk space; and 2, my house is already filling up with various PC magazine cover disks that I'm keeping for a few fonts here and a bit of clip art there (I must get a CD-R). Anyone know of an organisation that uses unwanted CDs? My son's nursery must have half the UK's stock of AOL sign-up disks...

[ipac]

So you don't consider a digital camcorder a DV peripheral then ?

And what's wrong with analog capture cards ?

[Peter Tomkies]

No I don't think that camcorders should be reviewed in the magazine, irrespective of format.

As for capture cards, I did not mean to exclude analogue - perhaps my choice of wording was inappropriate. (I have a miro DC30 and use S-VHS equipment for the record and I don't want to be excluded!).

[ipac]

I am not getting onto you or anything (must be my writing style, ken thought I was angry), but.......

You would limit the reviews to capture cards, hard drives, video related software and fully built pc's (as long as they have the capture capture cards built in, which have already been reviwed, with the exception of some apple's and a couple of laptops).

With all the extra space, as well as all the extra padding that needs removing, you want to replace it with more tutorials.

Could work, Bob could then have put the entire adobe premier tutorial in one issue.

[Alan Solomon]

The page that I write, is about my actual
experience in getting this kit to work,
including the warts. Especially the warts.
And *I* don't care if Computer Video loses
advertisers on account of the things I say.
And I don't think Bob does either, provided what I say is true, so he doesn't get sued.

I don't actually think that this corner of
the computing world is worse than the others;
I expect to have to reboot a Windows
computer once per day or more; my view about
how often that should be necessary, is less than once per year. But, it's once per day,
and people seem to accept that as normal.

So all the stuff that doesn't work, is par for the course, and is born out of the
tension between "got to ship" (without which
a company goes out of business) and "got to
get it working", without which a company goes out of business. Been there. Done that. We shipped a new product, every damn month. Ship it late, we got screamed at. Ship it buggy, we got screamed at. The usual compromise, is to have it mostly working. "Mostly" is an elastic word.

The problem is with the bits that aren't working. Are they important? If an NLE product is supposed to on work Win 95 in 8mb of memory, but doesn't, that's probably not important, because not many Win95 machines have 8mb. And does the vendor know about all the bugs? For sure they don't.

In a product review, I want to know, can I
use this thing to do what I want to do. The
trouble is, what I want to do is never exactly the same as what other people want to do.

In the case of the MP10; I love it, but the
software does crash rather often. This isn't
a big problem, as long as you keep saving.
In the case of the Dazzle, it wasn't so much that I had some problem getting it working. It was the absence of tech support when I needed it. With the VideOh! one issue was
the sale of the product from the previous
vendor to Adaptec, and the implications in the UK.

What I'd like a reviewer to do, is not just
"play" with the thing for a few hours, then write it up. What I want is for them to *use* it, for a real project, probably for a couple of weeks at least (months would be better). And then report on the capabilities of the thing, report in detail on any bugs in it, on the technical support that you can get. I want to see pictures of the thing (for example, showing the connections of hardware, or the main screen of software). I'd like the reviewer to give some comparison with other products in the same category.

I agree that CV would be better if it lost
the product list at the back, lost most of
the BBS copy, and lost the detailed tutorials for Premiere etc. Replace this with product reviews, tutorials on MCI, on PAL/NTSC, on MPG parameters. A more accurate write-up of IRQ conflicts, what causes them, and how to resolve them would be a good idea too. The problem I see is, how would you get those replacements? It is *very* expensive to get good copy.

Maybe Bob should put the cover price up some more?



------------------
I got the Queens Award for Technology for my software

[tez]

Couldn't agree more with most of your points Alan except maybe the tutorials....I for one would like an avid tutorial,I have been working with this product for four months now and am still amazed at the lack of a decent manual.

Indepth testing of products on actual products I can see being a problem for Bob et all due to lack of time but maybe this sort of thing could be done by readers in consultation with Bob as has been mentioned earlier in this thread.

Yes, more tutorials on the technical aspects of mpeg, capture resolutions and effect on disk space,project length, capture rate,what settings to use to get vhs equivalent quality under different setups etc would be a god send.

A much smaller product list at the back concentrating on video capture cards,software and accesories would get my vote.

If Bob needs to put up th price to accomplish more he should do it but we need to see a quick improvement so as not to lose readers

REDS FOR ANOTHER TREBLE!!!

See you

Tez

[Alan Wallace]

In reply to your assesment of products Alan I feel that you are looking from the point of view of a computer expert. My own experience of current software is exasperating. Everytime I have upgraded any part of my system I end up spending hours trying to iron out new bugs. I accept that these programmes are extreemly complex but surely the producers can sort out things like extension conflicts on different systems and failure to recognise drivers. On the Mac, adobe premier 5.1 does not recognise the Miro dc30 card so why sell me an upgrade that will not work with my existing product.
The different manufacturers should work together and come up with compatable systems as they are all interdependant.
I can think of no other industry where products are sold and do not do the job that they are advertised to do. At some point a prosecusion will have to take place under the sale of goods act!
I do not want to be a computer expert I want to be a video editor and yet I spend more time trying to understand computer speak that on working on my projects.
I currently have £6,500 worth of equipment gathering dust awaiting some magical day when pinnacle decide to provide their new dc30 driver.
I have always been a positive person but 14 months in this industry seems to be changing all that as you can see from the tone of my letter.
As for Bob, you only have to look at the times shown on the replies on the messageboard to know how many hours he puts in. Twice I have phoned the office before I got on the web and both times he came to the phone with excellant advice. The problem that the mag will always have is the different levels of expertise of the readers. Personally I would like to see much more information on system problem solving. I know that this is covered through the forum but articles on known problems with step by step solutions would help. Maybe the manufacturers could write them if they are prepared to admit that problems actually exist.
keep up the good work
Alan

[Unicorn]

I have to say, I agree strongly with that. I've been working in the computer industry for more than a decade, my day-job is writing Windows device drivers for a hardware company, and even I can't get this bloody video stuff to work. I had a working DC30+ system, then I installed a supposedly 'compatible' DV300, and now I have a sort-of-working DV300 system with a partially working DC30+. The most probable culprit is the BIOS refusing to give the boards different IRQs even though it has four free... and Miro's inability to share interrupts between its own cards. How do I fix it? Other than getting a new motherboard (expensive) or reinstalling Windows and drivers yet again (time-consuming) I have no idea.

I'm sure there must be someone out there who understands all this Plug'n'Pray stuff and could write a good article about it, and I think plenty of us would appreciate some help with these problems. It might also be a good idea to start some kind of organised complaints about all this flaky hardware; if we shipped boards and drivers as buggy as those I've bought, we'd be crucified.

[bcrabtree]

You, and I and the readers can shout as much as they like, but, in the end, it will be the purchasing decisions and the market place which will sort out these kinds of awful installation problems, not the companies who are the perpetrators.

As an example, I give you the DV300 - about which so much negative has been said - and the Canopus DVRaptor (reviewed in the delayed June issue), which has received very little but praise.

As sure as eggs is eggs, DVRaptor is going to kill the Windows version of the DV300 stone dead, unless either Pinnacle (or the card's maker, Adaptec) sorts out the problems with the DV 300 or Pinnacle buys out Canopus, as it did Truevision, whose DV card was making very serious inroads into the DV300's market share.

On the Mac side, there is a card from Aurora, the Fuse, which is cheaper than the DC30+ and a good deal better. This is now available in the UK (review in July issue) and will, if Aurora plays its cards right, blow the DC30+ out of the water.

And who, here, will feel the slightest sympathy for Pinnacle if these predictions come true?

Bob C

[Alan Wallace]

July is along way off bob. What price the fuse please
alan

[bcrabtree]

Off the top of my head, I can't remember for sure, and I'm writing this from home, so can't check. I think it's £499+ VAT, but don't want you to take that as gospel.

In case I forget to post the answer here Monday, here are some contact details, including the UK distributor.

http://www.auroradsgn.com
(Mac only)

Aurora
46868 Springhill Dr
Shelby Township, MI 48317
USA

UK distributor for Aurora is Channel Dynamics in Surbiton, Surrey, UK
0870 607 0540


Bob C

[Peter Tomkies]

I think these last few posts are drifting somewhat away from the theme of the thread Mr Administrator...

[ipac]

The debate is getting a bit off topic and clutered here, ideas are being transfered onto a new post called Future Proposals, the title is more relevant. If you have anymore replys it may be better to post it there.