Sky News

[oddball]

Its amazing what you can pick up in London,

I happened to be passing Victoria Street, by Scotland Yard when I very nearly bumped into a camera man. Fortunately I averted a rather interesting catastrophy.

The chap was shooting on Beta SX and I happened to break into a very brief bita banter about formats. It transpires that Sky news are moving onto disc based aquisition. Mmmm Wonder what that could be then?

I wasn't too sure weither this was an individual camermans choice or a departmental shift. I just thought it sounded interesting enuff to share with you esteemed people.

Ciao!

Oddball xx

[simond83]

possibly P2

[dominicwitherow]

disc based aquisition

Could be XDCAM HD. I can't think of any other disc based camera (unless, of course, he meant Hard Disk).

[Alan Roberts]

AFAIA, it's XDCAM HD.

[infocus]

AFAIA, it's XDCAM HD.
Interesting how stories change.....! My own understanding was they were favouring P2, but I haven't seen a Sky crew with such a thing yet. I also heard that the accountants thought the HVX200 was the bees knees..... then the cameramen were consulted. (And now it's NOT the HVX200.....) :)

I'm hearing a lot of people now saying that if you can, waiting makes a lot of sense, which has been my feeling for a while. I think Sky are finding the SX cameras more in need of replacement than organisations on other formats, and the lack of Firewire and easy compatability with laptop editing another issue.

[Alan Roberts]

I also heard that the workers objected to HVX200. But I'm really not at all sure what's going on at Sky.

[SimonMW]

Despite Panasonics many press releases, P2 is definitely not a favoured format in any organisation.

Wouldn't surprise me if they went XD. And with more and more freelancers buying XD HD most broadcasters are going to be forced to accept the format anyway even if it isn't their own format of choice (even Auntie. They aren't the influence that they used to be). There isn't really much of an alternative. Infinity is still going through a lot of issues, and some recent developments appear to have thrown even larger spanners into the works.

[Rob James]

...

Infinity is still going through a lot of issues, and some recent developments appear to have thrown even larger spanners into the works.

Please enlighten us further...

[infocus]

Despite Panasonics many press releases, P2 is definitely not a favoured format in any organisation.
Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. The BBCs views are well publicised, ABC (Australia) have signed a big deal for P2, and I heard from several sources that Sky News were not happy with the XDCAM units they had. But I understand the P2 rumour applies to the feeling well up the management chain. (Which also wanted the HVX200. ;)) Last I heard they were veering towards P2, but didn't seem to have ironed out the details, most especially towards card management. Unfortunately the devil is in the details, and it's the front line troops who are aware of the details.

Can you elaborate on your last sentence? (Via PM if necessary?)

[SimonMW]

The BBCs views are well publicised

No. The BBC managements views are well publicised. The views of the people who used it and had to edit it however weren't that well publicised, and for very good reason!

Sky have been dabbling with the XD system for a while. Haven't heard anything negative from anyone yet (quite the contrary), but if you have info I'd love to hear it.

[Alan Roberts]

Publically, the BBC board makes announcements and policies, and they are known as "BBC views". Employees may make their own views but do not and cannot represent the BBC because they don't run it, the Board does. This is exactly the same as for any other organisation.

[PaulD]

Hi
I've copied this from the Mac forum, as its as appropriate to this discussion:
http://forums.dvdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=40761

Hi
..."Alternatively it is why the BBC is expected to make FCP the only 'approved' (= mandatory) non-linear editing tool for all BBC HD/SD programming, fully integrating FCP with the Mac-based Creative Desktop universal production tool, which will link every production office and technical desk with access to the non-tape-based centralised HD/SD/offline-resolution media servers.
The only exception being news items airing in less than an hour from shooting.

If this really is the case then a further interesting question arises. Will they (BBC) be equally prescriptive about location formats/cameras? And if so what?

The cameras that the BBC will require ( = mandatory) to be used will have to be easily/fully compatible with whatever open(ish) standard the BBC choose for their media server file format.

[Rob James]

I must be slipping. I don't recollect seeing any official pronouncements from the BBC about acquisition formats or specific cameras. Please enlighten me.

[infocus]

I think it's referred to as the Starwinder project. This http://tvbeurope.com/pdfs/TVBE_download/2006/08/TVBE_P40-45_August_BusinessCase.pdf article came out just before IBC. In brief, they seem to favour Panasonic and Grass Valley over Sony as things stood then, at least as far as recording media go. I've not heard anything more on the subject since that time - perhaps everyones waiting to see what happens with Infinity and the 2/3" HD P2 camera?

[Rob James]

Thanks Infocus, interesting reading.

[SimonMW]

erhaps everyones waiting to see what happens with Infinity and the 2/3" HD P2 camera?

I don't think so. The BBC likes to influence camera design (possibly one reason they attach themselves to the Infinity). But with their high def plans, who knows if they actually intend to buy cameras soon, or wait until 2010? Or whether they will bother at all. The BBC seems to be constantly downsizing. Given their current state, and their less than expected increase in license fees, will they actually purchase equipment at all? 2010/2012 is a long time technologically speaking.

I wish I could say half the stuff that I want to regarding future stuff!

[infocus]

The BBC seems to be constantly downsizing. Given their current state, and their less than expected increase in license fees, will they actually purchase equipment at all? 2010/2012 is a long time technologically speaking.
The downsizing I believe mainly concerns selling off service areas, and I've heard it said the model is that they wish to become more like a "publisher". But the expectation is that they will still be COMMISSIONING product from the outside, as much as ever, and part of that process is quite likely to involve specifying technical standards. And the scale is likely to influence others, at least in the UK.

Quite simply, if you're a cameraman and you want to work for them, you have to turn up with "Format X", or work for someone else with the Format Y camera you may own. (Or join the dole queue. ;)) And maybe "Format X" won't be anything that is around at the moment. Now a Sony camera, (which most cameramen are used to) recording AVC-Intra, (50 and 100Mbs) to a standard Compact Flash card - what I'd give for that! (With a RevPro drive as icing on the cake!)

But the longer such as they put off the specification of the preferred HD format, the less that gets made in HD today, with the drawbacks of limiting sales etc. So maybe the answer is to bite the bullet and accept that a higher level of HD tape production is inevitable for the next few years until "Format X" arrives - whichever manufacturer it comes from.

[Rob James]

I wish I could say half the stuff that I want to regarding future stuff!

I wish you could too!

Given that the BBC is intending to hive off in-house facilities this year I'm guessing what they are attempting to achieve is control. If they can dictate the post production routes and the acquisition formats it would give them a much better handle on costs in the brave new world they seem bent on creating.

[StevenBagley]

Given that the BBC is intending to hive off in-house facilities this year I'm guessing what they are attempting to achieve is control. If they can dictate the post production routes and the acquisition formats it would give them a much better handle on costs in the brave new world they seem bent on creating.

But the BBC is getting rid of facilities that are from a previous era. Yes, they will be selling off Resources, but they'll still be doing as much work in-house. The difference is that rather than being done in an expensive Avid edit suite costing tens of thousands, it'll be done on desktop NLEs (mainly FCP).

Steven

[PaulD]

I wish you could too!

Given that the BBC is intending to hive off in-house facilities this year...Hi
As I understand it (I could be wrong of course) what is being hived off is the currently existing Resources division, with its current commitment to proprietary technology.
Not 'in-house production'. That will be re-invented in line with the brave new world of broadband-to-HD internet/digital broadcasting.
As you say If they can dictate the post production routes and the acquisition formats it would give them a much better handle on costs in the brave new world they seem bent on creating.

[PaulD]

...the expectation is that they will still be COMMISSIONING product from the outside, as much as ever, and part of that process is quite likely to involve specifying technical standards. And the scale is likely to influence others, at least in the UK.
Quite simply, if you're a cameraman and you want to work for them, you have to turn up with "Format X", or work for someone else with the Format Y camera you may own. (Or join the dole queue. ;) I agree with Steven.

Whatever external commissioning remains will have to be in line with the multi-media simultaneous propagation via all digital channels, with everything conforming to the BBC's technical specification to allow the lower res web broadcast to fully integrate with HD distribution.

No all existing external production entities have the multi-skill sets to survive in this world, which is no doubt a reason for the BBC to gather all its production more or less under its wing in the next few years while all this is got up and running.

[Rob James]

This all has a ring of deja vu. Perhaps they are trying to avoid the pain they went through getting rid of film editors a few years ago. (I was there...)

If they have any sense they will still keep the high-end finishing and conversion stuff in-house. partly due to the expertise required but also because there is still no substitute for hardware in some circumstances.

[Alan Roberts]

BBC buys new stuff all the time as part of the normal process. And the various parts of the BBC have their own views on how to go forward. These views are not nuniform across the BBC simple because the business model for the different parts is different, as any normal manager would insist it be. If one part sees that tapeless is best served by P2 or GV, another part might well not, and go another way. There's no conspirancy, and no corportae-wide directive as far as I can tell, kit seems to be bought because it's the best way forward that can be afforded for each job.

[infocus]

The way I read what has been reported about "Starwinder" was that a piecemeal approach to such things as formats was something they wished to avoid in the future, at least as far as dedicated hardware went. When broadcast life meant 2" quad for VT, and 16mm and 35mm film for everything else, life was relatively simple, and even after that broadcasters historically had a "house" VT format. Or maybe two - one suited to quality work, the other to such as news. The last decade has frankly seen a bit of an industry mess develop, and as far as the BBC goes, the last I heard was that whilst London was mainly Digibeta and DVCAM, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were predominantly SX. Fine until there's a big news story and half your staff are on one format and the other half on another......

That's obviously worst if we're talking about physical formats, needing expensive hardware. Far less so if the differences are (say) Compact Flash v SD card or P2 - readers are cheap. (Though the move away from Cardbus must be bad news for P2.) And hopefully NLEs will increasingly be able to mix codecs on the timeline.

So if future GV cameras used CF, Sony used Memory Stick, and Panasonic used SD, it wouldn't be too difficult for all edit suites, all satellite vans, all mobile editing to handle whatever was thrown at it - as said before, the readers are cheap. Which is exactly why I believe they have the attitude they do towards XDCAM. An XDCAM drive is anything but cheap.

Sony have not ruled out solid state for the future, it's just a question of when, which is why various quotes have been made about XDCAM being somewhat "interim" in nature. Although with P2 max capacities being currently half the max capacity of CF, whilst costing much more, it must be asked how much longer that will last.

[SimonMW]

Sony have not ruled out solid state for the future, it's just a question of when, which is why various quotes have been made about XDCAM being somewhat "interim" in nature.

Its anything but interim. There are a lot of plans for XD. Supporters of solid state may constantly say it is interim. However, while those sorts of formats change, XD will have been a robust, and constant standard for many years by then. Solid state will never be as throw away as tape. And thats a big problem with it. Certainly Sony haven't ruled out solid state. But not as a replacement for XDCAM any time soon.

What I don't understand is the use of the word 'cheap'. In the world of broadcast they have been using decks and other equipment ever since year dot. The word 'cheap' is not something I would expect to see used in conjunction with broadcast technology. What I would be more inclined to want to see, if I was buying equipment, are the words 'robust and reliable', followed by 'cost effective'.

[Dave Jervis]

The BBC has, historically, always tried to establish a "policy" relating to consistent standards and preferred technologies for making and distributing programmes. As a very big fish in the relatively small pond of "television" ('50s through to the '80s) it made sense.

What I am very aware of is that, twenty years on, the BBC is still a very big fish.... but is now in massive lake that is full of other fish. While the "voice" of the BBC still carries a lot of weight, the influence of all those other programme makers and distributors is certainly going to seriously influence the direction the technology and standards take. Indeed, if the BBC tends towards being a "publisher broadcaster" as has been suggested, then the capture format surely becomes a matter for the "content providers" (providing the finished production meets a specified delivery format and quality threshold).

Surely there doesn't have to be one winning system that is chosen at this moment in time.

I am reasonably confident that the best systems (plural) will "float to the top" in due course, based on workflow convenience, quality, professional operational features, reliability, durability, cost (of course), popularity with practitioners, etc. etc. (i.e. normal commercial pressures)
I don't think that there will ever (again?) be one "industry standard" system prescribed by a single person or organisation.

Simon, I wouldn't be too concerned about the "interim" description....... in the long run all these systems are interim! Anyone for CPS Emitron straight to F.R. ?

davej

[Alan Roberts]

Thanks Dave, nicely put.

[infocus]

Thanks Dave, nicely put.
Yes, I agree. Though some of the posts above presuppose complete programmes produced over a period of time. The opposite is probably news, and imagine for such as the BBC if (say) London went for XDCAM and Scotland went GV. What happens for the big stories - do Scotland have to make a large committment to XDCAM drives for what may be very occasional usage? Or would different cameras have to be hired for London cameramen going north? Surely standardisation within any one organisation must be desirable to some extent?
Solid state will never be as throw away as tape.
Never say never. Take a look at http://www.sandisk.com/Products/Catalog(1053)-SanDisk_Shoot_and_Store_SD_Cards.aspx for example. Not quite up for video, esp pro video yet, but only five years ago I'd have thought such a thing was much further away. Effectively, in the consumer market, we're now seeing solid state "film" at comparable prices to what film used to be.

[PaulD]

Indeed, if the BBC tends towards being a "publisher broadcaster" as has been suggested, then the capture format surely becomes a matter for the "content providers" (providing the finished production meets a specified delivery format and quality threshold).
Surely there doesn't have to be one winning system that is chosen at this moment in time.Hi
Read Mark Thompson's lips ;)
"What we're seeing is a distinct second wave in digital.
In many ways, traditional media coped quite well with the first wave: they launched new linear channels and text-based websites and began to experiment with mobile phones and other portable devices.

Anyone who thinks that that's the size of it...has got a big shock coming.
I believe that this second digital wave will turn out to be far more disruptive than the first, that it will be fundamentally disruptive, and that the foundations on which much of traditional media is built may be swept away entirely...

All media – sound, picture, text – available on all devices, all the time. Searchable, movable, share-able. But that's only the start – we're less than five years from fully individualised, drag-and-drop TV and radio stations...

But these things are only harbingers of what's about to hit us. And there's more.
Personalisation and peer-to-peer communication and dialogue mean that mass media – content made to be consumed by millions of people – will have to fight for its place in a media environment optimised for individual and household personal taste.
The public will find it if they can and watch or listen to it if they want...
We can deliver much more public value when we think in a 360 degree way, rather than focusing separately on different platforms or channels...

So wherever possible we need to think cross-platform: in our commissioning, our making, our distribution. ...We need to shift investment and creative focus towards on-all-the-time, 24/7 services...

On-demand is key. It's not just a new way of delivering content. It means a rethink of what we commission and make... We need to re-invent it, fill it with dynamic audio-visual content, personalise it, open it up to user-generated content...

News 24 is going to be key, not only as a TV channel but as the content engine of our UK broadband news offering – we're going to invest in it, move talent to it, break stories on it... ...in entertainment, we want to use 360 commissioning, interactivity and some lessons from the world of video games to produce more original primetime entertainment – and we want to go on exploring links between entertainment and the factual and drama genres: we want to deliver more hybrid hits...

...there are many areas – news, knowledge-building, music, content for children and young people – where technology means we can deliver more value, make a bigger difference for our audiences. But I know that the initial reaction of some to all of this will not be excitement but trepidation.

Is this the BBC back in imperial mode? What's the likely market impact?
...we believe that the right path for the BBC from now on is the path of distinctiveness, or providing blocks of valuable public service content that are different in intent and in substance from what other broadcasters and media players deliver.
That pattern, of prioritising ...to re-direct resources to the most strategically important projects – that pattern will continue....

In Creative Future, we've taken a long, hard look into the future.
What I see there – alongside the seismic change and the disruption – is a unique creative opportunity. ...the new digital media will allow a far deeper, richer offer than we've ever been able to deliver before."
www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/speeches/stories/thompson_fleming.shtml

That's one of many recent mission statement speeches from the BBC's management.
I don't think a lot of you 'traditional' television coal-face workers have got your heads around what he is saying - yet ;)
"We need to shift investment and creative focus towards on-all-the-time, 24/7 services..."

[Dave Jervis]

....................Surely standardisation within any one organisation must be desirable to some extent?................................
I quite agree. I would consider a news operation to be a "content provider" and, as such, free to select the most suitable capure formats and harware for their needs, including the level of "in house" standardisation required. What I would be unhappy about is making them use equipment geared to cinema release drama or mobile 'phone delivery vox pops.

PaulD. Mark Thompson's words seem to be a broad brush, aspirational acknowlegement of the breadth of future possibilities, coupled with a warning of how fast and far reaching change will be. Few of my contemporaries would take issue with any of that. To imply that the BBC will be "in there", delivering distinctive value content, across the board just raises more and more questions about how (and sometimes why) people will contribute towards these services. My worst fear is that part of the solution is to "make that content cheaply", as I believe this could lead to a downward funding spiral from which the organisation could not recover.

On a more practical note, content is still going to need to deliver in a suitable format for the most demanding "transmission" system it will be presented on.........

davej

[SimonMW]

Okay, its Sony produced, but interesting none the less;
http://www.sonybiz.net/res/attachment/file/03/1169220697003.pdf

Seems the BBC are covertly using XD after all!

[PaulD]

...free to select the most suitable capure formats and hardware for their needs...
On a more practical note, content is still going to need to deliver in a suitable format for the most demanding "transmission" system it will be presented on...Hi
That's the nub of the BBC's dilemma.
The capture formats will be dictated by the needs of the multi-format media-server and transmission system, and the need for an open non-proprietary server system to deliver everything up on demand, at any resolution, HD>SD>web-res.
Without crippling technology-licencing costs.
Non-proprietary = non-Sony (given their current technological philosophy).

If I'm reading the runes right.
www.pro-mpeg.org/mdg-ibc05-pr.pdf

[Dave Jervis]

I can't somehow see all the camera manufacturers hanging about waiting for the "perfect" formats to be given everyone's seal of approval.

The material ingested to such a server will surely be a mix of:
Edited (scope for a format change?)
Comp'd up rushes (also scope as above?)
Non "time critical" selected material (scope for transcoding?)
Material destined for specific known uses that could be in a "non approved" format
and yes, sometimes.... Urgent original rushes in it's raw unapproved state.

To my way of thinking, an interim development (with a long term aim of original source format convergence) would seem reasonable. Would that not work, as long as formats can be clearly "flagged" and correctly transcoded versions of the urgent raw material created a.s.a.p.?

Not ideal I grant you, but shouldnt the problem be "handled" rather than declaring the problem will not be allowed to exist?

Look, sorry, I'm a retired archair philosopher on these matters... I'll give you guys a rest from my ramblings now.
davej

[PaulD]

...shouldnt the problem be "handled" rather than declaring the problem will not be allowed to exist?Hi
At what cost, your 'handling'?
I would guess the BBC is aiming at reducing costs significantly by totally eliminating all non-standard media files from their servers - any such non-standard format material would effectively be invisible to editorial assessment using the Creative Desktop, which is the whole point of the system.

While existing archive resources will have to be transcoded, it will be most cost-effective to only accept appropriately formatted new footage....

[SimonMW]

Trouble is, the BBC will not be able to ignore formats. BBC24 isn't going to miss out on a story just because the only freelance cameraman in the area managed to get footage of an event using a format that the BBC don't use. Besides, as we've seen, the BBC do use XDCAM at the moment on programmes like Grange Hill. I wonder how many others there are that they aren't telling anyone about.

[PaulD]

Hi
Of course BBC News has always 'bought' unique footage from (say) ITN, but traditionally it hasn't been their policy to enter wide-scale pooling of news shooting with their competitors (except say with the Royal Family where pooling is forced on them).

As to production deals like Grange Hill, it will no doubt take several years to institute their one-format policy - Producer Choice will be totally killed off - to reduce costs.

I'm only extrapolating from such information that I've seen given out so far - but the cost-reducing logic of it all seems self-evident. (Even more so given the recent BBC Licence Fee capping).

[StevenBagley]

Besides, as we've seen, the BBC do use XDCAM at the moment on programmes like Grange Hill. I wonder how many others there are that they aren't telling anyone about.

Not the Beeb, Lime Productions are and according to the link you sent they are only using it to record DVCam off HDC-1500s so in effect no different to what the BBC do anyway (but they use their own HDD-based recorders (http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP133.pdf) at a fraction of the cost to do the same thing). The result from either operation is DVCam-compressed MXF files for the edit suite.

But I suspect in due course the BBC will be strongly advising on how they want things made so that they can ensure picture quality isn't compromised on any platform; from HD to mobile phone.

I think it is also important to disentangle news operations from the rest of the BBC because by their very nature they have different requirements.

Steven

[Alan Roberts]

The big problem within the BBC is that it's being fragmented. Virtually all drama is now shot by inedepentents and is bought in; so there can be no directive as to shooting format (Last Of The Summer Wine is now shot with Viper onto HDCM-SR). Regions all almost autonomous and can make their own decisions. All this was forced upon it by the Thatcher government and John Birt. So the views you're hearing about DVCProHD and server files is only relevant to the central operations areas, and not to all production. It's inevtiable that any and every format available will eventually be used somewhere, but the central operation has to save large amounts of money and so is being forced into tapeless and central servers; it's the result of shrinking budgets and licence fees at a time when output nis expected to increase and improve. It isn't rocket science.

Incidentally, I was at a EBU seminar ("Production Technology 2007") in Geneva yesterday, to talk about my favourite subject, and picked up lots of interesting snippets, like the central (to the EBU) view that progressive compresses better than interlace (obvious) and that 1080p offers little over 720p (true at present, but unlikely to be true in the long run when production technology and displays can do justice to it). Plus, some news of the Infinity........

[PaulD]

...the central operation has to save large amounts of money and so is being forced into tapeless...Hi
That's the first time I've heard the BBC Production centre in Bristol so described ;
(Everything made there except the Natural History Unit).0

Edit: Logically it would seem appropriate for the BBC to run a pilot scheme to plan workflows for their future complex at Salford Keys.
Or is that going to be another 'autonomous' regional centre?