Camera suggestions please

[noddydog]

I need to start researching a replacement for my PD170. At present my requirements are as follows;

1) Similar size/dimensions to the PD170
2) Reasonable low light capabilities
3) Widescreen chip
4) Cost less than £3200
5) Must be reasonably robust since it will be used in anger globally.

Right now I am considering the Sony HVR V1. Next month I will be down at the Video Forum getting my hands on one and considering other options.

Please can somebody tell me what other models fit the bill so I can start researching them.

Thanks.

[rjpobrien]

Canon A1 is a similar price range and size. Possibly the Sony Z1 (stretching the budget a bit and slightly bigger). That's it really AFAIK.

[fuddam]

sounds like Sony V1, except for the low light issue. don't know if it will cope with being used as a club, though......

:p

[noddydog]

You never know when you will need an expensive club! Anyway thanks for the feedback. I had considered the z1 but it's a little too large for my style of shooting + the technology inside is almost two years old now. I'm assuming Sony's V1 has more up to date bells and whistles although the glass may be better in the Z1 (?)

[JAC]

For the money the Canon XH A1 seems a great buy. You can find it at several online dealers for around £2400 inc VAT. That leaves money for batteries, wide angle adapter etc.

This link has lots of sample footage shot on the A1
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=143

Download this Quicktime movie to see a low light comparison between the Panasonic DVX200, Canon A1 and Sony PD170
http://www.joesimonproductions.com/shootout/lowlight.mov

[noddydog]

Ok the A1 sounds interesting and I'll start looking at it. Are there any decent reviews anywhere? Secondly if I could afford the extra for a HVX200 what do I get for my money?

[doolahroak]

Ok the A1 sounds interesting and I'll start looking at it. Are there any decent reviews anywhere? Secondly if I could afford the extra for a HVX200 what do I get for my money?

The pleasure of extremely expensive, low capacity recording media if you want HD.

Not sure what you will be using the cam for, but the HVX200 seems to be aimed more towards the indie film maker at the moment as they can afford the time to off load the P2 cards to hard drives/laptops. DVCProHD though which is a bonus

You do, however, get a whack of recording options 720/1080/25P, undercranking and overcranking ability. A lot of features that are great for film making but probably a little overkill for more day to day applications.

Produces very nice pictures though. To my eyes, the most pleasing picture of the current crop of 'affordable' HD/HDV cams.

Jon

[fuddam]

and HVX200 is apparently not an easy cam to focus. Heard many reports of it being very soft in the viewfinder. Your situation doesn't really lend itself to carrying around an extra HD LCD or CRT, right?

;)

although, it WOULD be something else to use as a club, while saving the camera..........

[doolahroak]

Probably looks soft due to the larger LCD screen than HDV cams. However, I can only presume that these reports have come from people who have not engaged the focus assist. The HVX is the only 'affordable' HD cam to have the ability to have the focus assist continue to work as you record. the others don't for some strange reason.

[JAC]

Here are some reviews of the Canon A1

http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602584

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-XH-A1-Camcorder-Review.htm

On the above site here's a 4 part test of the Sony V1 in actual use on a month's trip to Las Vegas, Malaysia and India.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/On-the-Road-with-the-HVR-V1U-Part-1.htm

[tom hardwick]

'' the technology inside is almost two years old now. I'm assuming Sony's V1 has more up to date bells and whistles although the glass may be better in the Z1 (?)''

The Z1 is two years tested, sorted and has a stamp of approval all right. The V1 still has question marks hanging over its progressive mode, which may have delayed its introduction rather.

It does have a 20x zoom that's effectively faster than the 12x zoom fitted to the Z1, but it's feeding chips that are only 56% of the size of the Z1's, so the Canon G1 and A1 should surely have your attention.

tom.

[noddydog]

'' the technology inside is almost two years old now. I'm assuming Sony's V1 has more up to date bells and whistles although the glass may be better in the Z1 (?)''

The Z1 is two years tested, sorted and has a stamp of approval all right. The V1 still has question marks hanging over its progressive mode, which may have delayed its introduction rather.

It does have a 20x zoom that's effectively faster than the 12x zoom fitted to the Z1, but it's feeding chips that are only 56% of the size of the Z1's, so the Canon G1 and A1 should surely have your attention.

tom.


Thanks Tom, I'm going to start researching them all in depth in the next two weeks and then I'll play with them at the Video forum.

Thanks everyone for pointing me in the right direction.

[noddydog]

Now this is interesting:

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82181

[fuddam]

agreed. makes the A1 look very healthy, IMHO

[noddydog]

Has anyone on here had hands on experience of either the Canon A1 or Sony V1? If so what are your thoughts re real life pros and cons?

[fuddam]

you be going to video forum, n'est pas? not that it's the best answer to your query

[noddydog]

Yep, trouble is that apart from seeing dimensions, screen, playing with zoom/iris + other buttons, there's not a lot more to be learned in such a short time. Personally I start to get to know a camera after about a month. Before that we're just good friends;-)

[noddydog]

This is interesting, 'supposedly' the 25P problem on the V1E can not be fixed:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=84516

Interesting how the thread ends with admin closing it down.

Also I note Sony's UK broadcast website still has the V1 shown as 25P

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=HVR-V1E&site=biz_en_GB&pageType=Overview&category=HDVCamcorders

Anyone know what the latest is on this?

[SimonMW]

Yes. Sony are working on the issue. Apparently it has gone the other way now though so when you are in progressive you need to tone down the sharpness to -3. As the others have said, you'll see the camera at VF. It would be absolutely ridiculous for Sony to stop selling it as a progressive camera. It uses progressive CMOS chips to capture the image!

The V1 is a good camera. I really liked it. More than the Z1 due to its smaller size. Although you can't switch between 60hz and 50hz like the Z1, the V1 does have some useful functions such as the histogram which I think should be put on all cameras. I was also astounded at how well the V1 coped with bright contrasty sunny conditions. The Z1 just seems to fall apart in such situations.

[tom hardwick]

''The Z1 just seems to fall apart in such situations''. Fall apart? With black stretch turned on? How do you rate cameras costing £2000 then? They must be unuseable.

[noddydog]

Yes. Sony are working on the issue. Apparently it has gone the other way now though so when you are in progressive you need to tone down the sharpness to -3. As the others have said, you'll see the camera at VF. It would be absolutely ridiculous for Sony to stop selling it as a progressive camera. It uses progressive CMOS chips to capture the image!

The V1 is a good camera. I really liked it. More than the Z1 due to its smaller size. Although you can't switch between 60hz and 50hz like the Z1, the V1 does have some useful functions such as the histogram which I think should be put on all cameras. I was also astounded at how well the V1 coped with bright contrasty sunny conditions. The Z1 just seems to fall apart in such situations.

Thanks for the update. For my circumstances the smaller size/weight of the V1 and the bigger screen (over A1) might very well be the decider. However this issue with the P25 is concerning me since much of what I will be shooting will be delivered over the Net and I understand that Progressive is ideal for this (?).

I will certainly be grilling the chaps on the Sony stand. However I wonder if I will get the 'what problem' treatment that seems to prevail so often.

[infocus]

Yes. Sony are working on the issue. Apparently it has gone the other way now though so when you are in progressive you need to tone down the sharpness to -3.
Hmmm. It's worth reminding ourselves of when this camera was last discussed. http://forums.dvdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=39696&page=4 Yes, that's the 9th October that Simon described it as : "There is one hell of a weird 'oil painting' effect that only happens in progressive mode." - and from the frame grabs you posted I fully agree with you. The 9th October - that's 3 1/2 months ago! How much time is it going to take?

OK, a lot of new cameras seem to have delays regarding their launch, presumably whilst teething problems are sorted out. That's one thing, but it seems from the posts on the other forum that Sony just launched anyway and hoped no-one would notice. My reading of the posts about turning sharpness down to -3 is not that a fix has gone the other way, and the adjustment brings sharpness back to an acceptable level. Rather that Sony are saying that such an adjustment will get rid of the 'oil painting' problem - but errr, just leave the picture very soft........

[SimonMW]

They thought they had it solved before Christmas. When I tested the V1 it was preproduction and didn't come out for a while afterwards.

You'll see it at VF anyway and be able to judge it there. I haven't seen the fixed camera myself. All I know is what the Sony management tell me, and what they told me to pass on should anyone ask. That being that they are not ignoring the issue and are trying to solve it.

[infocus]

You'll see it at VF anyway and be able to judge it there.
I'm not sure VF is the place to make accurate technical assessments on cameras - far too many variables.......
I haven't seen the fixed camera myself. All I know is what the Sony management tell me,......... That being that they are not ignoring the issue and are trying to solve it.
Isn't that a bit contradictory, Simon? Is the camera fixed, or is there still an issue which Sony are trying to solve? And if the latter, why is it on sale? Exactly what have Sony management told you?

[SimonMW]

I'm not sure VF is the place to make accurate technical assessments on cameras - far too many variables.......

Yes, but if there is a serious issue, you will see it.

Isn't that a bit contradictory, Simon? Is the camera fixed, or is there still an issue which Sony are trying to solve? And if the latter, why is it on sale? Exactly what have Sony management told you?

Okay, here's the skinny. When I tested the camera originally and found the problem there was some reluctance to accept that there was an issue. However they finally found that there was. They tried a fix before Christmas and that didn't solve the problem. So they had Sony Japan look at the problem more closely. They did their stuff, and now I am told that the problem is fixed. But I haven't had a camera sample. Its a firmware fix which is why the camera is still on sale, and anyone with an original camera can have it updated.

But as I say, I haven't seen this fixed camera so I can only tell you that Sony management have told me that it is fixed. I'll also add that you will need an HDMI lead to display 1080p correctly on a 1080p capable display straight from the camera (ie without line flicker due to the displays deinterlacing). Component is not good for viewing the progressive output.

[noddydog]

Can anyone give me an idea of what a decent wide angle adaptor lens will cost on the V1? Also what is the benefit of going with Sony's portable hard disk over something like Firestore, which seems a little cheaper?

[Dave R Smith]

For my Z1E I bought a Yukimade w/a convertor.
I assume V1 is same fitting/compatibility - but check before purchase.

Can be seen here:
http://www.provision-direct.com/ProductInfo.asp?ProductRef=326&ProductInfoColumn=benefits

I paid £294 some time ago from provision.
Since then I have tried to contact them for a lens hood for it, but haven't answered my emails or returned phone calls!!

A search also reveals this
http://www.tnpbroadcast.co.uk who have it for £260(+vat?, p&P?)

I have been happy with it in use - and would have been stuck without it.
Can't comment upon it's quality versus competition as very difficult without side by side test.

[tom hardwick]

Generally, the more you pay for a wide-converter the better it will be. You could go with Sony's own, but it's pretty mild in an effort to contain the barrel distortion, and the V1 needs more than a 0.8x in my view, as its wide-angle is so poor right out of the box.

Good lenses are made by Century, Raynox, Tecpro, Kenko and Bolex, the latter being the best of the lot. I'd say take yourself to town and wizz round the Video Forum. Take the V1 with you and record through as many wide-angle converters that you can screw and bayonet on. Tell the mics what's in place.

Go home and look at frames from the Memorystick in Photoshop. Look for barrel distortion especially, as this is the hardest to remove and is a good test of a wide-angle converter. When you've decided, go for the best you can afford.

If you buy the threaded version over the bayonet it'll be more hassle to fit, but at least it can go with you camera to camera over the coming years.

tom.

[tom hardwick]

Dave - your Yukimade w/a convertor. It looks like a non zoom-through to me - can you confirm? And is it multi-coated? A must for any converter.

have a look here for lens hoods for wide-angles:

http://www.cavision.com/LensHood/sunshade.htm

but make sure you get a 16:9 hood if that's the format you shoot in.

tom.

[noddydog]

Generally, the more you pay for a wide-converter the better it will be. You could go with Sony's own, but it's pretty mild in an effort to contain the barrel distortion, and the V1 needs more than a 0.8x in my view, as its wide-angle is so poor right out of the box.

Good lenses are made by Century, Raynox, Tecpro, Kenko and Bolex, the latter being the best of the lot. I'd say take yourself to town and wizz round the Video Forum. Take the V1 with you and record through as many wide-angle converters that you can screw and bayonet on. Tell the mics what's in place.

Go home and look at frames from the Memorystick in Photoshop. Look for barrel distortion especially, as this is the hardest to remove and is a good test of a wide-angle converter. When you've decided, go for the best you can afford.

If you buy the threaded version over the bayonet it'll be more hassle to fit, but at least it can go with you camera to camera over the coming years.

tom.


Great advice, thankyou. Can you tell me whether it's common practice to state whether a w/s adpator is zoom through or is this something I will need to confirm with the manufacturer?

[Dave R Smith]

Dave - your Yukimade w/a convertor. It looks like a non zoom-through to me - can you confirm? And is it multi-coated? A must for any converter.

have a look here for lens hoods for wide-angles:

http://www.cavision.com/LensHood/sunshade.htm

but make sure you get a 16:9 hood if that's the format you shoot in.

tom.
Hi Tom,
I see the spec has been removed from the site of 2 retailers where I saw it.
Can be seen here though (hit cancel if you see a prompt for foreign character sets).
http://www.wako.com.cn/PGA-6572HD2.asp
Yes it's multi-coated.
Zoom through? The specs translated from japanese don't make it clear.
In practice it's fine if starting from a zoomed in position the pulling wide.
If starting wide the focus ring has little tolerance between around 2m and infinity- but that's expected for a wide angle.
My main concern at time of purchase was panning/interlacing giving bad image.
The interlacing is visible on pans but I assume this is a result of interlacing, rather than the lens itself.

Thank-you for the pointer to www.cavision.com
I did subsequently write to them and in turn they pointed me to their UK supplier:
www.productiongear.co.uk.

Good advice about getting snapshots of w/a's at videoforum.
I found most retailers didn't carry convertors in stock, so difficult to test pre-purchase.
This was also true of Gearhouse broadcast who supply wholesale to likes of BBC - so yes Videoforum is good test ground.

[tom hardwick]

QUOTE=noddydog;278642]Great advice, thankyou. Can you tell me whether it's common practice to state whether a w/s adpator is zoom through or is this something I will need to confirm with the manufacturer?[/QUOTE]

You can bet that the more compact a wide-angle converter is, the less likely it is to be a full zoom-through. Generally partial zoom-throughs allow you to use about half of your original zoom - still very useful of course, but it depends on the camcorder's auto focusing power. Partial zoom-throughs are most often single elements or cemented doublets.

Full zoom-throughs are always bigger and heavier because they're most often of three element construction, though Century sometimes use 4 elements and Tecpro sometimes use two, Generally manufacturers point out if their lenses are one or the other, but if you're convinced you need full zoom through, then it's best to get written confirmation before the lolly hand-over.

Zoom through? The specs translated from japanese don't make it clear.
In practice it's fine if starting from a zoomed in position the pulling wide.
If starting wide the focus ring has little tolerance between around 2m and infinity- but that's expected for a wide angle.
My main concern at time of purchase was panning/interlacing giving bad image.
The interlacing is visible on pans but I assume this is a result of interlacing, rather than the lens itself.

Not quite sure what you mean here Dave. Full zoom-through means you screw on the converter lens and you can use the full zoom range as before, the only difference being it's a 12x zoom starting at (say) 3 mm instead of a 12x zoom starting at 5 mm. And what's ''expected of a wide-angle'' pray?

Yes, camera or subject movement will show the comb effect of interlaced footage and it has nothing to do with the focal length you've chosen. All interlaced footage (if shown interlaced) has half vertical resolution on pans.

BTW, my tests at Video Forum have enabled me to choose the best wide-angle, the best case, the best lanc controller, the best tripod and the best camcorder. It really is the place to go if you're after kit ~ after all, it's all there in one big room.

tom.

[Dave R Smith]

Not quite sure what you mean here Dave. Full zoom-through means you screw on the converter lens and you can use the full zoom range as before, the only difference being it's a 12x zoom starting at (say) 3 mm instead of a 12x zoom starting at 5 mm. And what's ''expected of a wide-angle'' pray?

tom.

Hi Tom,
I'm aware that some convertors can only be used at one end of zoom range. I understand some operate over full zoom range - but require refocusing when changing focal length.
>And what's ''expected of a wide-angle'' pray?
Large depth of field in contrast to shallow depth of field when zoomed in.
I was therefore referring to practice of zooming in to lock on subject then zoom out - unless of course you use the expanded focus function on your Z1.

[noddydog]

I was down at the Video Forum today and had a bit of a play with both the Sony V1 and the Canon A1. Personally I like the V1 and that's the one I'll be going for. It felt more robust and refined than the A1. Also the LCD screen was a considerable leap ahead of the A1, and I don't just mean in size, but in terms of clarity and detail. I know that the A1 may pip it to the post with reagrd to manual controls, image quality and supposedly low light conditions (I'm not convinced since the V1 had various low light options in the menus and until these have been experimented with and then compared with the best the A1 can offer, I personally would say the jury is still out), but for my purposes (including eventual project distribution methods) the V1 is the winner.

Thanks to everyone who has given me advice and information on this one. This is a great community and your input has made my life a lot easier.

[Rob James]

...

BTW, my tests at Video Forum have enabled me to choose the best wide-angle, the best case, the best lanc controller, the best tripod and the best camcorder. It really is the place to go if you're after kit after all, it's all there in one big room.

tom.

Please Tom, share your conclusions. I'm sure there are many here who would value your opinions. (not least me) ;)

[tom hardwick]

Rob, I'd love to (and often do, at length). But I should have put that better - I've used the Video Forum to choose the best kit *for me*.

F'instance - you want to buy a camera case. Your local Jessops has a vast range, the biggest of which would have you bend your Z1 in two to fit it in. So you pop down to the VF and every 5th stand offers you a vast array of cases. They're all colours, sizes, materials, prices and designs.

Wonderful! I chose a Petrol (Israeli design, made in China), having pondered, unzipped (oh-er) shouldered, bargained (very important) and dithered. I then go for another look at the competition just to make sure and come back to pay.

Same with Lanc controllers, tripods, whatever it is you need. Only buy kit when you need it I often say, but the VF is too good a one-stop-shop to miss, and it may well be worth 'pre-buying' simply because you have so much wonderful choice all around you.

This year I took the Z1 around all the stalls selling wide-angle converters. Every single one of them (even the Canon stand) were happy to let me attach the lens to my Z1 and film through it. I panned up into the high spots in the ceiling (a tough flare test), I filmed the straight lines of the stand partitions, I zoomed with the lenses in place and all the time chatted away into the mics. Then I unbayoneted/unscrewed the lens and filmed it as well, getting the salesan to tell me the price. Try doing that in Jessops.

On the edit bench back here in the peace and quiet of home all is revealed.

tom.

[Steamage]

...Personally I like the V1 and that's the one I'll be going for...
Given the hoo-har over the V1's problems with 25P, haggle hard. I'd hope that you could get the price down below the XH-A1, at least. My reasoning goes like this: FX7 costs £2K. ViE used to cost £3k for which you got balanced audio and 25P. If those two features justified £1000 extra on the price, then now that one of them is shown to be n.b.g. the price ought to drop by £500 - at least. Good luck.

[Bruce]

I asked the Sony man on the stand about the 25P problem - what problem? The individual settings allow you to get just the picture you want - so it's not that there is anything wrong it's just personal taste! and then "what do you expect for the price".

[tom hardwick]

DVUser mag's test of the V1's progressive problems sent me over to their stand at the VF. All sorted now, Nigel tells me. Buy a V1 with confidence, but beware of oversharpening in PS mode.

[Dave R Smith]

Jit (Ex-optex now Calumet) told me at videoforum that V1 progressive 'issue' was with the first consigment, which went back and problem should not exist for present /future purchasers.
He didn't elaborate on whether 'first cosignment' meant first to Kalumett or to UK as a whole.