Cheap HDV Camcorder

[Richard Payne]

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-Announces-Under-$2000-HDV-HDR-HC1-High-Def-1080i-Camcorder-.htm

Interesting.

[Pivo]

And a HDV/DVCAM Version:

http://www.optexint.com/hdv/page2/page2.html

[Richard Payne]

Ah - more on that here too.

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/137252.html

[cstv]

ooo... this is exciting...

put HDV to one side for the moment and the use of CMOS chips is a nice feature. Digi stills cameras have been gradually goind that way for a while now and it's good to see the technology being developed properly for video.

Do we know if this is going to be a world-wide release or will it be (as i suspect) reserved for those countries with high HDTV uptake like the USA. I can't see UK consumers investing in HDV when most of them haven't even seen HDTV yet.

mark.

[infocus]

Indeed interesting, and I suspect a sign of more to come, though I was surprised to see it was single chip and 4:3 at that. With all that implies for compromising wide angle performance.

I await seeing it's performance!

[infocus]

I can't see UK consumers investing in HDV when most of them haven't even seen HDTV yet.

Well - that doesn't seem to have hindered Z1 sales in Europe so far....... And don't forget the upcoming Sky launch fairly soon now, with the ad campaigns that will inevitably accompany it. And I now see 50 inch plasmas are becoming common in Currys, let alone those tiny 42 inch models.

New product = early adopter = high prices = high profits? And commonplace a few years down the line?

[Unicorn]

Either way, within a year DV will probably be going the same way that Hi8 was six or seven years ago... decent picture, but something for your granny to shoot on rather than any even half-interested video enthusiast.

[mooblie]

Looks like the end (finally) of the PDX-10 then? I wonder what it's like in low light?

[PaulD]

Hi
It says 7 lux in the link. And AFAICS the 4:3 ratio is only for stills (1,920 x 1,440 pixels), as the HD video is described as 1080 on the same chip.

[StevenBagley]

PRess release here for the pro version:

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5925


Steven

[mooblie]

It says 7 lux in the link..

What?! Compared to "1 lux" quoted for the PD-170?!? Is that nearly three stops worse?

[infocus]

Doesn't surprise me - that's one of the problems with single chip camcorders. Putting all the pixels onto a single chip and using subtractive filtering inevitably means a drop in sensitivity, relative to 3 chip. Each pixel has to be smaller and therefore gathers less light. And for hi-definition, and the same size chip, that means more pixels again, therefore smaller pixels, therefore less light per pixel.

Beware simple lux figures anyway. Cameras such as the PD150 "degrade" the image in other ways as the light goes down to mask the effects of the gain they put in. The picture quality of such as a PD150 at 1 lux will be nowhere near what it is with more light, though it may give a fully exposed picture in both cases.

And 7 lux - the JVC PD1 was quoted at 30 lux I seem to remember.......

[RayL]

An interesting clutch of new HDV cameras - but surely disappointing to most of the readers of this forum.

What are we really looking for? Why, an 'on the shoulder' camcorder with the features of a Z1 but which takes full size tapes and sells for maybe £4K. If I remember correctly, Alan has said that this won't happen because such a camcorder would take away too much trade from Sony's expensive pro cameras.

Oh well, we can but dream . . . .

Ray Liffen

[infocus]

What are we really looking for? Why, an 'on the shoulder' camcorder with the features of a Z1 but which takes full size tapes and sells for maybe £4K.
Indeed... AND a smaller model, similar to the one just announced, but 3 chip and true widescreen, an up to date TRV900. A camera for the serious amateur - small and light enough to easily take on holiday, lacking pro features, but still with decent performance.

[Alan Roberts]

Gents, HD broadcasting in Europe is going to take off a fair bit quicker than you might expect. I can't say any more.......

[RayL]

Oh Alan, you are a tease. Look, if I said that I was planning to buy a camcorder very soon (this is true) and that it would have to be a Z1 since there was no 'on-the-shoulder, full-size-tape' model, would you advise me to go ahead and buy or should I hang on a bit longer?

Ray

[Alan Roberts]

On the principle that every day you've got a camcorder, you can use it, I'd say go ahead. The general rule seems to be that whatever you buy now will always be made out of date by newer/cheaper models very quickly, HD's no different. Looking into my crystal ball though, I suspect that the market is going to see a fair few HDV-type camcorders in the next year or so, but all with the aim of getting cheaper to sell more rather than looking more professional. The market's already well supplied at the pro end with the HDCAM and DVCProHD (not to mention Ikegami) ranges.

I seriously doubt that HDV will get full-size tapes, because the push is on to get out of tape altogether. I'd expect to see P2 prices drop to sensible levels, and for XDCAM to go HD, before that happens.

[infocus]

It may not give full size tapes, but I'd love to know what Canon are up to. Until the Z1, it could be argued that they made the definitive prosumer model. Regarding the tape argument, personally I feel devices such as Firestore have changed the landscape (they will record 3 hours) - hence the tape becomes a simple low cost backup, rather than the primary medium to feed an edit system. And that's as true of XDCAM as tape. IMO a better workflow than such as P2 AT THE MOMENT. And yes, Alan is a tease - I note his use of the word "broadcasting", so suspect he's talking of matters other than consumer camcorders. Is he able to give us any idea of timescale until a major announcement, if nothing else?

[cstv]

Gents, HD broadcasting in Europe is going to take off a fair bit quicker than you might expect. I can't say any more.......

the "in Europe" makes things slightly less exciting because it probably suggests that we're talking about continental Europe rather than UK broadcasting specifically. but feel free to enlighten us further if i'm wrong Alan... ;)

That said though, HD does seem to be moving very quickly these days! And i'm really looking forward to panasonic's HVX200... panasonic are saying they'll have 8GB P2 cards ready for the launch, and i'd expect 16GB within another 6-9 months after that.

and Ray... JVC's offering is a set in your direction with it being shoulder mounted...

oh, and yes! a smaller model with fewer features but a good quality 16:9 image would be great!

I'm becoming increasingly concerned about missuse of the term "HD" though as other manufacturers step into the marketplace with their lower-end HDV cams. HiDef is going to be used as a marketing buzz word rather than a technical description...

mark.

[RayL]

Regarding the use of the Firestore as a way of overcoming tape time limitations, at present its 'maybe, but not yet'. Here's an example:-

I had one of the first Firestores that came into the UK a couple of months ago (ordered back in Jan at the Video Forum) and have been double-banking it with tape ever since. Yes, the FS4 will record about 3 hours - but not without at least three battery changes (and I've only got two and they can only be charged on the FS4 WHEN IT IS NOT WORKING). One fully-charged battery lasts eighty-and-a-bit minutes - less, in other words than a miniDV at long play (and sometimes you just have to use long play because you can't afford the continuity break caused by a tape change). So towards the end of a long sequence of the bride and groom saying goodbye to 250 guests as they leave the Great Hall in Bromley, Kent you can hear on the soundtrack the beep-beep of the FS4 as it closes down through lack of volts. Fortunately, the tape continued to roll so I have shots of the b&g getting into their car and being driven away, roll credits. The makers of the FS4, Focus Enhancements, say they have plans for a higher capacity battery and that a firmware upgrade for HDV is on it's way but both are 'not yet'.

Ray Liffen

[infocus]

Point taken Ray - though that issue doesn't exist with larger cameras. I use a 12 volt take-off from the main camera, and the Firestore then lasts as long as the camera does itself, powerwise. Equally, for event filming, it would be ideal for a fixed camera position with power (mains or a big 12 volt battery) available.

The other point is regarding it (with tape) versus P2. With the latter, archiving loses you some of the time you gained by not having to digitise. With tape/hard drive, the archive (tape) is made at the time of shooting.

Mark - yes, I know what you mean. But think in the future there will be "HD and non HD" and good and bad products within each category. I think the JVC looks like a step forward and a step back from the Z1 at the same time.....

[SimonMW]

Things are getting interesting. Things will be even more interesting when we have a HD way of distributing stuff, even if it was just more DVD players that could play WMV HD content. The Playstation 3 with its Blu-Ray system is going to be the real kicker for HD in the UK I suspect, not the World Cup or Sky.

My original plan was to get a HD lens such as one of the Canon HJ series and then upgrade the camera body when one to my liking appeared. Panasonics HVX has thrown a bit of a spanner in the works really.

I know Alan says that cameras become obsolete quickly, but I'm not so sure. A HD camera is an HD camera. There will be better models along afterwards for sure with better lowlight capability, better signal/noise ratios etc, but really once you have a HD camera it should last for a few years as there won't be anything of any higher res coming out any time soon. My old XM1 was considered a dinosaur of DV cameras, but it just kept going and earning me money, and indeed impressing some people with much better cameras!

I think we need more cameras in a similar mold to the XL1s and the new JVC HDV with 1/2" ccd's and changeable lenses. This would be a good start to give people more choice. It will be interesing to see what Canon come up with.

I would still find it hard to go back to tape though.

[StevenBagley]

Sony Japan's web site has some details about the A1 and HC1, translations of which are available here (although considering they appear to have been run through an automated converter they are not exactly going to get awards from the campaign for clear english)

http://hdvforever.com/hdv/hvra1j/default.htm
http://hdvforever.com/hdv/hdrhc1/default.htm

I do wonder if this might not turn out nicer pics than the Z1, considering that it has a true 1920 pixel CMOS sensor compared to the Z1's 960 CCD sensors.

Looks like there are some nice features on the pro model (such as being able to display a histogram of the image on screen).

Steven

[infocus]

..........it has a true 1920 pixel CMOS sensor compared to the Z1's 960 CCD sensors.

Yes - but remember it's single chip, and making the assumption it's a Bayer filtration pattern, that means horizontally 960 green pixels, and 480 each red and blue. I wouldn't expect it to be sharper than a Z1, and I'd definately expect it to be less sensitive.

[StevenBagley]

Yes - but remember it's single chip, and making the assumption it's a Bayer filtration pattern, that means horizontally 960 green pixels, and 480 each red and blue. I wouldn't expect it to be sharper than a Z1, and I'd definately expect it to be less sensitive.

It's also an interlaced camera, so I presume it will be averaging line pairs vertically. This means that for each of the 1920 pixels on each interlaced scan line I'll have 1920 green pixels (alternating between each line), 960 red, and 960 blue ones contributing to what makes up the 1920 luminance and 960 chrominance pairs in the final video signal in the HC1 and A1. On the Z1, you have 960 green pixels (technically there 1920 but they are sited in the same place as each other so will not give any extra horizontal information) and 960 red and blue pixels shifted horizontally to increase the res. Mathematically, it seems simpler to me to be able to interpolate to 1440 down from 1920 than it does up from 960 and get real detail from the image.

Of course this assumes that the lens can actually deliver as much res to the CMOS sensor as the lens in the Z1 (although maybe the lack of the prism blocks might make the design of the optics simpler -- I don't know enough about lens design to comment).

But I agree with your comments about sensitivity though.

I suspect we won't know how it performs until the model is about to play with, but the lack of a manual iris control (even on the pro model!) seems bizarre. Great camera for home use, no use professionally.

Steven